Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.

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78: Tailwind Twitter Wars and the State of JS


Show Notes

The developer community can be highly opinionated. We find our favorite tools and fiercely support them because they help us meet our goals.

Tailwind has been polarizing since it launched in 2017. Some developers swear by it, claiming it makes their code cleaner while others think it’s a waste of time. The State of JS results are in and they reveal that Ember is still lagging behind in retention, interest, usage, and awareness compared to other frameworks. Chuck and Robbie agree that it doesn't really matter what framework you use, as long as you are productive and have a reusable, understandable way of working.

In this episode, Robbie and Chuck talk about the polarizing debates in the developer community surrounding Tailwind CSS on Twitter, the results of the 2023 State of JS survey, and their favorite shows.

Key Takeaways

  • [01:33] - A whiskey review - Wolves X Undeated Signature Blend.
  • [11:17] - Recent Tailwind wars on Twitter.
  • [20:03] - Chuck and Robbie review the State of JS survey.
  • [44:50] - How Chuck and Robbie enjoyed their holiday.

Quotes

[14:29] - “I started back in the day, and you did inline styles with tables to make your Photoshop slices work out, you know what I mean? Couldn't get any uglier than that.” ~ Chuck Carpenter

[19:44] - “Sometimes you just don't get to win all the battles. That's just part of software engineering.” ~ Chuck Carpenter

[27:10] - “I think in general, everything is becoming there's less resistance on all fronts. Like you don't have to have a CS degree, whereas they might have looked at that before.” Robbie Wagner

Links

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Transcript

Robbie Wagner: [00:09] Welcome, friends, to Whiskey Web and Whatnot with your host Robert William Wagner and Charles William Carpenter III. What's up, Chuck?

Chuck Carpenter: [00:18] Yay. What's up, doc? To think about that. Actually was talking about this recently about how my children aren't very well exposed to Warner Bros. cartoons, which was a staple of my early childhood. Should have taken a left turn.

Robbie Wagner: [00:34] They have Looney Tunes.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:35] Albuquerque. Exactly. So I have to get that.

Robbie Wagner: [00:39] They even have new Loony Tunes, which isn't too bad.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:42] I don't know if I have space in my life for that. Got to go OG first.

Robbie Wagner: [00:47] That's fair.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:48] Yeah. So going well. How about yourself?

Robbie Wagner: [00:52] Well, I'm sleepy. I just ate an entire bag of Sour Patch Kids, so feeling a little jittery.

Chuck Carpenter: [00:58] Oh, good. Strange combination. Should make for and then throw some alcohol into the mix and see how that goes.

Robbie Wagner: [01:03] Yeah, it's perfect.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:05] Yeah. Today's subject is on air, not live. I almost said live, but this is recorded and shown later, but liveish analysis and read of the State of JS. Those survey results are out now, and people have had a little time to digest them, and we thought, hey, we should talk about it, too.

Robbie Wagner: [01:23] Yeah, that and a brief segment on Tailwind Twitter wars, which have been flaming up recently.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:31] Yeah, I think it'd be an interesting discussion, but anyway, we must start with the lubrication of said conversation first.

Robbie Wagner: [01:38] Indeed.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:38] Today, we are doing the Wolves x Undefeated collaboration. Right. It does come in this cool canvas bag, so there's that.

Robbie Wagner: [01:47] It does.

Chuck Carpenter: [01:48] On the bag, it says the price of being a sheep is boredom. The price of being a wolf is loneliness. Choose one or the other with great care. Very ominous.

Robbie Wagner: [01:59] Sage, like advice.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:00] Yeah, something like that.

Robbie Wagner: [02:02] So mine says it's bottle number 150 out of 520. So this is pretty small batch unless there's a whole bunch of batches because it is batch number one. I don't know if yours also says one.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:16] Oh, batch one, bottle 300 to 520.

Robbie Wagner: [02:19] Okay.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:20] And the label is.

Robbie Wagner: [02:22] Like, leather.

Chuck Carpenter: [02:22] Rich. Leather, yeah. Smell it. That's very interesting. Bougie as all hell. Okay, so we do know it's 103 proof, made in California. I don't know if it is also distilled there, but it is rye whiskey and hop-flavored whiskey blended. But, yeah, they're super secretive, so we won't know a whole lot about that mash bill.

Robbie Wagner: [02:45] Yeah. What we do know this is the only little snippet they had online that was like it's a collaboration with Undefeated, obviously. It's basically their signature whiskey. So it's like it contains a higher pilsner whiskey than some of their prior signature releases, and they're distilled over a ten-day period in a small lambic pot still that was imported from Cognac, France, in 1983, so.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:10] Interesting. And I know that there are different shapes of stills, and have I ever been able to detect a personal difference based on those shapes? No idea. But a pot still is actually a similar thing. What Willett has for their pot still signature whiskey and that bottle that's in that shape. Anyway, let's get to the business. Yes, Josh, that was our sound effect.

Robbie Wagner: [03:36] Well, that's a nice pop.

Chuck Carpenter: [03:37] Yes. Okay. Solid pour. Got a little burny alcohol bit.

Robbie Wagner: [03:54] Smells a little bit like apple juice or grape juice or something. Like a sweet juice of some kind.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:05] My nose is currently destroyed from going up north and then coming back down to our dry weather. So I may get all of these things wrong, but I'm getting slight hoppy floral in the beginning of the smell.

Robbie Wagner: [04:16] Yeah, there's a little bit of hoppy.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:18] I could see where there's, like, some juicy acidity to it, though.

Robbie Wagner: [04:22] Yeah, I think I'm smelling less hops than we did on the previous, like, their normal signature one.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:27] Okay, I'm going to first do the priming drink and swish around in my mouth.

Robbie Wagner: [04:32] Yeah, I have to rid my mouth of all the Sour Patch Kids.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:36] Should provide a good precursor to this flavor. Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [04:41] Yeah, it tastes pretty hoppy.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:43] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [04:44] Which is weird that it doesn't smell more hoppy, but.

Chuck Carpenter: [04:47] Yeah, it's got kind of like a bit of a grassy, earthy kind of thing. Like, to me, sometimes you have those salads with, like, edible flowers in it and stuff. It has a little bit of that, but also a mustiness for me. So it's a little musty. It's a little floral hoppiness and floral, though.

Robbie Wagner: [05:08] A little bit spicy. You can get the rye a little bit in the beginning, but then as it finishes, it's, like, really hoppy and different.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:15] Yeah, different, he says. And that's definitely. I think the theme of their releases is you're going to get something very different. There's nothing else out there that tastes like their stuff, so I give you that. Yeah. I neglected to bring any water with me to try it a second way, but I wonder if you open it up a little bit, that might give you some more diversity there and get more of the rye side. Because right now, the hoppiness is kind of it dominates a bit.

Robbie Wagner: [05:44] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [05:44] And like I said, it's mustiness. It's almost like I don't know. I can't place it yet, but there's, like, this mildewy musty kind of in the finish for me as the hops kind of go down.

Robbie Wagner: [05:55] Yeah. The way that I would describe all of the Wolves Whiskeys we've had so far is, like, they are tailor built for someone that's like, I want something interesting, and I have a sophisticated palate kind of thing. Not like, I want the most delicious whiskey I could get, more like I want some flavors that I'm not used to. I think they execute well on that, but it's definitely not the tastiest I've ever had.

Chuck Carpenter: [06:20] Okay, well, that's a different aspect to say. We just want to come at whiskey from a just completely different area, and they're starting with a real beer base in their mash bill and then taking it further in terms of the proofs and whatnot. My perception was that like serious, crazy beer connoisseurs who maybe dabble in whiskey would, like, love this, but this feels like such a solid niche, and they're expensive and limited and all of this kind of thing to it. So it's sort of like if you're chasing beer guys with scotch prices might be.

Robbie Wagner: [06:58] Well.

Chuck Carpenter: [06:58] Yeah, so it might be a reach. I know that they do some very high-end collaborations, so I'm probably totally wrong on that perception. And instead, they are going for, like, this is very rare and very unique. And they can definitely say those two things.

Robbie Wagner: [07:13] Yeah, I think that it's more for that it's a novelty for the whiskey collector who has every type of whiskey. Right, and this is like a thing they haven't tried. Yeah, that's my perception.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:23] I'd agree with that. And I also agree, like, then I'm just sipping it, not taking like too much heavily. It's late afternoon for me, so don't judge me. But the more I sip it, the more it mellows. I think the more that I get some hop on my palette, I start to get a pilsner, like European pilsners, where it has a little bit of light hop flavor and some of that other it's more diverse.

Robbie Wagner: [07:45] Right.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:46] Actually, instead of being like an IPA, punch you in the face with hops, it actually is getting more of a pilsner or kell kind of flavor to me.

Robbie Wagner: [07:57] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [07:57] Given those things, ultimately, how would you rate this on our highly scientific scale of one to eight tentacles for our listeners tuning in now for the very first time? Where the hell have you been, first of all?

Robbie Wagner: [08:09] Well.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:10] I was advised that I should be explaining this scale every single time. So that's why I'm going through it again. Yeah. So one being terrible, don't want this anymore. Eight being amazing, give me nothing else. Robbie and I personally have started segmenting that into whiskey categories to be a little more fair to those. So here we are in weird ass shit that there isn't any other comparison to other than Wolves. Where do you put it? Or maybe we just say American whiskey.

Robbie Wagner: [08:39] Yeah, no, I think in general whiskey, I would give it a six. Compared with other Wolves, I think this might be the best Wolves I've had to date. So it's pretty good. I think the others, like, I couldn't really see myself drinking later. This I maybe could, so.

Chuck Carpenter: [08:57] I'm going to agree with that on both points, actually. So in terms of an American whiskey, I think six is a pretty decent place to go with it. It is pretty pricey to experiment, personally.

Robbie Wagner: [09:10] Right.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:11] But compared to the other Wolves that we've had thus far, this is the standout. Because I just felt like, well, the one the first one was just way too beer to me in general. The last one, I think, and that was like the Willett collaboration, was good but wasn't substantiated in the price to me. So it wasn't unique enough to really kind of like, why are we doing this? This one seems to take that a little bit further, and I am curious to try it with a couple of drops of water to open up. I think that might change some things, too. So six for me would to have again, wouldn't really chase it. Think it's interesting and the presentation is nice. So I'll give them that. They get a little something extra there. The real question is, did you get the T-shirt?

Robbie Wagner: [09:55] Not yet. I ordered them, but they haven't shown up yet.

Chuck Carpenter: [09:58] Got you. Yeah. Skip that. Maybe I'm choosing to be a sheep. It's hard to say.

Robbie Wagner: [10:03] I think the key is ordering it directly from Wolves because the previous two we got on the secondary market. What do you call it? My brain doesn't work. Is that what we call it?

Chuck Carpenter: [10:13] Kind of basically a different reseller.

Robbie Wagner: [10:17] From a reseller, we'll say that.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:19] Somebody who picked some up and then decided to charge you more money to resell it to you.

Robbie Wagner: [10:23] Yeah. So we were paying like double the price, and that influenced them not being as good. And also the Willett one I had really high expectations for because a few Willets I've had have been really good, and it was just not as good as normal Willett.

Chuck Carpenter: [10:36] Yeah. I was going to say I would take my money and buy a few bottles of their normal Willet rye, which I think is pretty good and spicy. The beer whiskey didn't really add enough to it for me. Not that it was bad, but just wasn't interesting enough, and is what is more interesting. So looks like we've got something there. Right. At the end of the show, I'll give Robbie's home phone number and address where anyone who would like a sample can write in to him and ask for a nice two-ounce dram until the bottle is empty.

Robbie Wagner: [11:05] Yeah. And then we'll also give out Chuck's social and mother's maiden name so that you can take his identity if you'd like.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:11] Good luck doing much with that. Have at it. Maybe you'll clean it up. Who knows? Hard to say.

Robbie Wagner: [11:16] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:17] Alrighty. So it looks like we're on the web part, and I've heard this show has three distinct segments.

Robbie Wagner: [11:23] It does.

Chuck Carpenter: [11:24] Yeah. So let's try the second one, which is about things in technology on the web usually. Or web associated.

Robbie Wagner: [11:31] Yeah. So we'll just spend a couple of minutes on the Tailwind thing because I don't really know the back story. I just want to kind of comment on it. But yeah, it's like all of a sudden, there's a whole bunch of people. There's always been people where someone will post. I like, Tailwind. It's cool, whatever. And then some other people are like, oh, well, why don't you write CSS? Like, Tailwind sucks, blah, blah, blah, or vice versa. Someone's like, I just wrote some amazing, normal CSS, and people are like, are you dumb? Couldn't you use Tailwind? And then recently something happened. And I don't know if you know any of the backstory, but it's been really toxic the past couple of weeks where it's just been like, if anyone mentions it at all, there's like a ton of pile on. And I was making a point of commenting on everything. Just like, I like Tailwind and seeing what happened. And then this one guy was like, yeah, why would you ever use Tailwind? If you use Tailwind and Tailwind UI, you're supporting their terrible CSS framework, whatever. And I was like, well, should we go back to using BIM and write websites really slowly? Like, what do you want? And he's like, Well, I want you to not support this Nazi supporter Adam, who wrote this framework or whatever. And then people commented back on that. Like, what? If you're going to call that out, you need to like.

Chuck Carpenter: [12:53] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [12:53] Have some sources, bro.

Chuck Carpenter: [12:55] So he seemed like a lovely gentleman to me. He's been on the show, and he likes whiskey, and so we keep it pretty light here. So perhaps we didn't get into the potential of his embrace of neo-Nazism. I don't know. I'm going to go on a limb and say probably not the case, but.

Robbie Wagner: [13:16] He's got kids and a family.

Chuck Carpenter: [13:18] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [13:19] I could see maybe he posted something a little bit political one time that leaned a little right or something. And maybe that's his source. But like.

Chuck Carpenter: [13:27] Who knows?

Robbie Wagner: [13:28] Everything I've seen him post is overwhelmingly positive. He seems to know most of the other prominent people in the community. Like, he pings like Sam Selikoff, and who else? Like Wes Bos. He participates in the community.

Chuck Carpenter: [13:43] And he had the conversation with Chuck Carpenter, who is like, everybody knows that guy.

Robbie Wagner: [13:49] Yeah. Not to be confused with Charles William Carpenter III.

Chuck Carpenter: [13:52] No, two different personas. But anyway, yeah, so I have no idea. What was the flame starter there? I don't know. But I just kept seeing things over the last week and was like, wow, this is really but conversely, having been through gen one of the framework wars, been through the browser wars, and I've seen a few different highly opinionated people who'll go and really fight like the good fight on the right way of things. A separation of concerns and non-separation of concerns, styled components, everything. So I started back in the day, and you did inline styles with tables to make your Photoshop slices work out, you know what I mean? Couldn't get any uglier than that. So everything beyond that is an improvement in my view. And well, I have no dog in this fight, really, just because I'm not that interested in CSS aside from getting something done in whatever way, that is, is it writing out of a style sheet where the cascade is infinite overrides? Hopefully not that with a bunch of importance because I have been down that path, and it's not fun. But conversely, if your your jam is like styled components or some atomic framework or Vim stuff, and I liked Vim early on just because where we were then, it kind of made sense. I think maybe it might be a little overly complicated now, but design systems and storybook component libraries and all the things in between, and really at the end of the day, as long as you're productive and you have some reusable understandable way of doing it, who really cares? Yes. This guy created a thing with utility classes. Some people would argue with what's the difference between doing this and just doing the style attribute. Just as readable explicitly what this thing does. Maybe there's an argument there. It's mild. I would say it's like a little bit faster to use this thing. Right.

Robbie Wagner: [15:59] It's also a little bit like in the scale of a huge app. It's smaller just from style equals display flex versus class equals flex. Like slightly less bytes, but on a thousand-component scale, that adds up.

Chuck Carpenter: [16:14] Sure. Totally. So there's that. What's wrong with it? The fact that anybody cares enough to go and fight in public about it if you don't like it. I feel like, okay, when people talk about capitalism and consumerism and all these kinds of things, to a degree, it's sort of like they want to go and fight and say, why a certain company or brand or whatever is wrong. And you're valid to say that, but also just don't buy their shit. Don't watch their show, don't whatever it is just skip it. It's not for you. Perfect. Same thing with Tailwind. There's other tools available. Don't subscribe to his Tailwind UI. Don't use the tool. Go another direction as you have, or your own super clever idea and be done with it. Wasting time fighting on the internet is weird.

Robbie Wagner: [17:08] Yeah. I think the problem is if people posted, like, I don't like Tailwind because of X, like something like not calling people out, that'd be fine, but someone will be like, everyone that uses Tailwind is a fucking moron because of X-Y-Z. And then they're like, okay, now I'm heated, and I'm going to come in and be like.

Chuck Carpenter: [17:28] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [17:28] No, no, no.

Chuck Carpenter: [17:29] Right. Like bringing emotion attached to your tools. It's like me saying, well, I only use CRAFTSMAN, and if you use whatever other wrench, I don't even know you're dumb because CRAFTSMAN turns a nut better.

Robbie Wagner: [17:44]DEWALT.

Robbie Wagner: [17:45] Yeah, or whatever. So it's akin to that in a way. Exactly. If you're not coming in and being defamatory to individuals. And if I want to say I don't like Tailwind because I don't want to read yet another set of docs, and I know how CSS works, fucking A. Good for me. If I'm like, I don't like Tailwind because this guy Adam is shilling out some stuff and getting other people excited about something, and I don't like that they're excited about a tool in development. Because, again, let's think about the impact of said thing is his company gets to enjoy some success, and some people feel like they are able to be more productive and move through to other parts of an application. That's their opinion. That's their right to do so. And if you don't want to participate, then don't. And you can even say like you said on Twitter, I just don't like Tailwind because I prefer it this other way. Leave it at that. Nobody needs to come in and save this company. No one needs to defend their reputation. They're doing a great job reputation-wise and evangelizing themselves. And if you disagree, then move on. And if others agree, roll with it. So that's my two cents on that. No one cares about the more I asked for.

Robbie Wagner: [18:57] Yeah, I'd like to say that I agree, but I also want to say as many bad things about React as I can, regardless of whether people like it for whatever reason. So I kind of understand people being in that same mindset, but.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:12] So say it. And I could say if I wanted to. I mean, I'll be honest, I was like, I don't want to put 100 classes on something. This doesn't make any sense to me. What the hell is the point? And then later being on a project with you needing to make changes and you have to start using it, and you're like, fine. Yeah, this works fine. I don't care. This works fine. This got is through the thing. No interest in dying on that hill and being like, we should switch all these things because when I contribute to the project, I don't want to do it in your way. Even though you're leading the project. Sometimes you just don't get to win all the battles. That's just part of software engineering.

Robbie Wagner: [19:50] Part of life.

Chuck Carpenter: [19:51] Yeah. Removing yourself. Yeah. Removing yourself from the emotion attached to your beautiful artistic code base. That is exactly the way you feel things should be. No. Sometimes you just got to suck it up and get things done.

Robbie Wagner: [20:04] Yup. On that note, move to some State of JS.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:09] Yes. Cool, because I also have spicy things to say there.

Robbie Wagner: [20:15] You do?

Chuck Carpenter: [20:16] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [20:16] Okay.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:17] I'm just starting with it.

Robbie Wagner: [20:18] Yeah. So I was just, like, going down the list of their tabs, basically, of the results.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:24] Did you get beyond T-shirt? Because I feel like that's a thing for you. You're like, how many T-shirts should I order? What size? I mean, I want to be a medium, but I'm on large right now. It's the winter. It's not my fault.

Robbie Wagner: [20:34] I'm definitely not a medium. I haven't been a medium for a while. That's another thing.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:42] Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [20:43] Anyway, no, I'm past T-shirt, so I went through maybe the first half of the tabs, but I just want to start back at the beginning and go through them for people that may not want to go view it themselves, we can give our synopsis.

Chuck Carpenter: [20:56] Okay, let's do that introduction garbage.

Robbie Wagner: [21:00] I'm skipping that. Data Explorer is the first real thing.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:04] Just kidding. Sacha.

Robbie Wagner: [21:05] Okay, so it lets you choose a few different fields, I guess, to kind of compare. I think the point is seeing age or amount of experience or what type of education you have and gender and race and stuff and what your compensation could be. Or I guess you could look at company size and race and stuff like that.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:31] Yeah. So you're in demographics or Data Explorer as a whole.

Robbie Wagner: [21:35] Oh, I'm looking at demographics. I didn't see there were other things there. So I guess you can see everything in this.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:40] Okay. Yeah. So Data Explorer will start to have you tweak things specifically. But I think demographics is a great place.

Robbie Wagner: [21:46] This is complex.

Chuck Carpenter: [21:46] Yeah. We should just start with demographics and kind of roll through that a little bit because there are some clear biases here in unintentional. But you'll see that the majority, and I mean, it's only 11% out of the entire, but the majority are from the United States who speak English, who have the age. The average age of those who answered said thing is 25 to 34. So, again, talking about some of the spikes in the time that our industry has grown. So I think years of experience speaks to that, too. And if I'm going too fast through some of this, or do you want to pin on any one of these things, let me know. But I just wanted to do a swoop through this tab first and then maybe talk about it specifically.

Robbie Wagner: [22:36] Yeah, I don't know how many things you're going through or if you want to look at differences in the demographics.

Chuck Carpenter: [22:42] So I'm on the demographics tab, and I'm just kind of going through each table and just highlighting the majority of each one, and then we can kind of circle back. But looks like most people did get a degree in a related field, actually, and most 70% of respondents are men. And let's see here, percentage and then ethnicity is 50 plus percent white. So again, some very assumed trends in our industry, although constantly evolving, of course, but still pushing to that the skewing, too.

Robbie Wagner: [23:21] Yeah. You can also take these out of context a bit because if you look at gender and yearly salary, you can see in the more than 200,000, 93% is male, but that's the case for all of the things except for I work for free, has a little bit less percentage. So it can sound really bad, like, oh, men make a lot or whatever. But the key thing is just there's way less women.

Chuck Carpenter: [23:53] Right? Well, I was going to say you need a couple of different data points on that because I think the first thing I would look at, at folks making over 200,000, is what's the average experience level there? So how many years have they been in the industry?

Robbie Wagner: [24:09] Well, we can look at that.

Chuck Carpenter: [24:11] Yeah. So there you go. That's my question there is how many years have they been in the industry? And I think that speaks to a lack of diversity, even like ten years ago, easily. And then, beyond that, it would get even more so. So usually, obviously, salary attached to experience and level. And I know we live in a crazy world right now where people three to five years can be considered a senior engineer. I personally struggle with that on a lot of levels. Not based on aptitude or intelligence or whatnot, but more about, like, what have you experienced? And not just productivity and code knowledge, but how you can influence your team, how you can be a mentor, how you can analyze situations and know that three out of five paths can lead to this versus this, that kind of thing. So it's usually like, have I seen it? Have I had some experience around there? And does that wisdom inform my decisions moving forward?

Robbie Wagner: [25:12] Yeah, for sure. So looking at the years of experience, it's hard to say exactly because their columns are six to ten years and then eleven to 20, but it looks like around probably ten years or so of experience is like, you might be able to make 200K. In general.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:30] I think that's reasonable. I think I mean.

Robbie Wagner: [25:33] So then let's see, years of experience versus gender. So that is, let's see. Well, it's kind of similar per gender. Like.

Chuck Carpenter: [25:45] How many respondents within all of this who have ten-plus years experience are not male? That was the way to say it, not male. So if you can bundle up, just not male, exclude, not listed, and not male.

Robbie Wagner: [26:03] Can you do that?

Chuck Carpenter: [26:04] I don't know. I thought we were doing a lot.

Robbie Wagner: [26:07] I don't think. It doesn't have complex filtering.

Chuck Carpenter: [26:10] Yeah, I bet they have an API, and we'll have to come back at that because it would be interesting to do some cross-filtering along those and then look at a percentage of all respondents. My assumption would be, and perhaps that's a problem already, is that folks with 200,000 plus most would have ten-plus years experience and, at that point, may be predominantly male, that's my assumption. Could be wrong. I do feel like we're trying to make strides. I feel like, just in general, the openness of engineering culture has improved. Some recognition of past mistakes are there, so, like, the intent to do better and be more inclusive and hopefully makes that more encouraging from an education standpoint, when folks are looking at either making a career change or what career they want to have, that this comes up more as an option.

Robbie Wagner: [27:09] Yeah, I think in general, everything is becoming there's less resistance on all fronts. Like you don't have to have a CS degree, whereas they might have looked at that before. You don't have to have had, like, previous experience necessarily. Like you can just kind of do a boot camp and jump in, or there's so much demand that it's becoming more open because of that. You can't be as picky. And we're trying to get, it'll even out eventually, but it'll take a long time because, as you said, it's heavily stacked from the beginning. So unless all those people die or get fired, it's going to stay that way for a while.

Chuck Carpenter: [27:48] Right, right. But as time goes by and as more and more folks are hired in for engineering and incentivized to consider it as a career and better education and all of those things. So fingers crossed. But yeah, I just think that's possibly an interesting data point. When this came out, I glanced at it. What was it? Maybe a week or two ago, but I didn't really dig much into it. I mostly went to see if our podcast made it, which it didn't. So we suck.

Robbie Wagner: [28:18] No. Hey, I know I put it in. Did you put it in?

Chuck Carpenter: [28:20] I did.

Robbie Wagner: [28:21] There we go. We got two votes.

Chuck Carpenter: [28:23] Definitely got two votes. They're not showing all the info. Cool. So that covers demographics, or do you have any more to add there?

Robbie Wagner: [28:30] Yeah, so the Data Explorer, I find a little bit complex for what I was looking at doing. I think we should maybe just go down the tabs. So it's like the demographics tab tells you the majority of people were in the United States, spoke English, were 25 to 34, and had three to five years experience, and were at fairly large companies, like 100 to 1000 ish. So that's a good high-level overview, I think, versus trying to because I'm bad at managing the Data Explorer table. It's nice, but it's complex.

Chuck Carpenter: [29:09] Yeah. Well, TBD on additional data points. Roll down the features.

Robbie Wagner: [29:17] Yeah. So this one I thought was interesting because you can see the percentage of people that both knew about it and have used a thing. So it's like nullish coalescing is really high because that's amazing. And so it's like 81% and then stuff like, let's see what is proxies are lower, like 37%. What's the lowest thing? Error prototype calls? Yeah, I think that's a newer one where you can say, like, the cause of the error or something. So that one's like 27%.

Chuck Carpenter: [29:56] Are you focused more on never heard of it?

Robbie Wagner: [29:58] No. Are you looking at the features page?

Chuck Carpenter: [30:01] Yeah, I'm on features. And then like this overview where you.

Robbie Wagner: [30:05] Can hover all the things I see it now.

Chuck Carpenter: [30:09] Okay. Knowledge coalescing. And then by the size.

Robbie Wagner: [30:13] Temporal is really low. It's newer, and I think no one knows what it's used for yet. It's 14%.

Chuck Carpenter: [30:21] Promise any. Promise all settled. I mean, ratio. Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [30:28] I think it's interesting that. Service worker is less than half of people have used it.

Chuck Carpenter: [30:33] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [30:34] Thought that would be higher.

Chuck Carpenter: [30:35] It's interesting because I feel like it's not often thought like such a ready-made solution. It's not like top of mind when you're working on some things right. And you think like, oh, maybe I can not worry about this and toss it off thread versus because, I mean, the way JavaScript files can be blocking, and you're trying to mitigate that and organize that right within your file. But if you could think of some things that you could dish off that aren't as important in context that way, like, hey, why not? So yeah. I don't know. My thoughts are is that even though it's been out for a while, it's just not top of mind as a solution.

Robbie Wagner: [31:16] Yeah. I wonder if people aren't thinking about like maybe some of these people used it and didn't even know if you install like Nuxt PWA or whatever, it's going to add one for you that's just for caching your stuff. So I wonder if people considered that as yes, I've used it, or they're like, oh, I haven't used it manually, so I don't count it.

Chuck Carpenter: [31:40] Food for thought. There discussion points to bring about on Twitter since people like to talk about things. Yeah. I'm actually surprised and pleased that Shadow Dom is has a decent presence of things. I can remember it was a little more bleeding edge, like four plus years ago, when we decided to utilize Shadow DOM to replace an iframe setup, and then that technology and taking out protecting it a little easier and not worrying about this weird messaging API to sync things. So it's a little more like one way but also way cleaner, and there's just some weird stuff with Iframes not using them. And an alternative was pretty great, but yeah, that's pretty solid. Yeah. Broadcast channel API. Don't know. I think I probably said no on that web assembly.

Robbie Wagner: [32:36] Yeah, I mean, all of this is mostly how I would expect. Web sockets have a lot of have used it.

Chuck Carpenter: [32:44] Let's see what is pretty low.

Robbie Wagner: [32:47] It's hard to this graphic is like misleading because it looks like some of these are low, and then they'll be like 30% or something.

Chuck Carpenter: [32:53] Yeah, right. I thought Shadow Dom was like a little lower. It was 54%. Web speech is newer, for sure. We know that. We talked about that, I think, in a recent thing array prototype at and I wasn't familiar with that at the time. I recall going through things and being like, oh yeah, what the hell is that?

Robbie Wagner: [33:10] Where is that one?

Chuck Carpenter: [33:11] It's on the left purple side.

Robbie Wagner: [33:12] Oh, I see. Yeah, that's pretty high.

Chuck Carpenter: [33:14] Yeah, it's decent. I'm willing to admit I wasn't aware the promise stuff is a little more like temporal is the whole date replacement thing, right?

Robbie Wagner: [33:27] Yeah, it's like a date-time library, and I don't really know what it does. We should probably, like, do a sample project on it, and then we can talk about it perfectly. Not like people that have no idea what they're talking about.

Chuck Carpenter: [33:40] Yeah, that's us. Cool. Well, our knowledge score was okay, I don't know, 60% to 70%. I feel like that's where I was when I went through some of the stuff. There's a lot that I had heard of.

Robbie Wagner: [33:52] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [33:53] Mostly in, like, reading newsletters and and articles and Hacker News, things like that. Maybe. I don't know, kind of bubbles up with that. Yeah, that's my thing of choice. Okay, so what about language? Really digging into, oh, okay. Yeah. This is just a breakdown of the same thing we were just talking about.

Robbie Wagner: [34:12] Yeah. So the thing, we’ll just go to libraries next. And this chart is insane. If anyone hasn't looked at these results, you should go look at it just to see this chart.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:23] It'd be a cool T-shirt, maybe. Nice graph.

Robbie Wagner: [34:27] It looks like you took a bunch of, like, purple and teal Crayons and just like colored everywhere in, like, a weird pattern.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:36] I have some similar art on my wall where I have to be like, I love it. Thank you so much, kids.

Robbie Wagner: [34:45] But it doesn't really make sense to me other than you can kind of read the quadrants. And I understand that that it's like the left is negative opinions, the right is positive, and then the bottom is hasn't used and the top is have used.

Chuck Carpenter: [34:58] Okay, so rather than this clumpy, you can't read shit anyway, we should just dig into the subcategories of libraries.

Robbie Wagner: [35:06] Yeah. Well, while we're here, I just wanted to mention a thing that I noticed so Ember, even since the first one in 2016, is still in the negative opinions and haven't used, which is like, okay, guys, I know it's not that popular, but it was not that negatively viewed then it's more recently negatively viewed. So this survey is heavily skewed to React fanboys. So keep that in mind as you read.

Chuck Carpenter: [35:35] There you go.

Robbie Wagner: [35:37] But the thing that is nice is it was, like, trending more negative, and then this year it came back from, like, went back positive or it's still in the negative column, but went back to like, the sentiments people had in, like, 2019. So it's like recovering. It's never going to get in the positive one because you would need a lot of results, but people don't hate it as much now.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:01] It came up a little in 2018, right? Like, 2016 had a level came up a little bit in 2018.

Robbie Wagner: [36:07] Well, it's not up. It's left and right. So it was going all the way left until last year, and then this year, it went all the way back right to, like, 2018.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:16] Oh, I don't know. I'm not looking at stupid fucking chart anymore. I moved ahead to front-end frameworks ratios over time, and it has a 2016 to 2022, and while it's a downward trend for the most part, it looks like. Okay, and so this is retention, interest. So the all three ratio over time, and it was out of 2016, it went down, came back in 2018, a downward trend from there. And as far as that aggregation, it looks like a still downward trend from last year.

Robbie Wagner: [00:36:48] That's retention.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:50] So it's 21% last year. No, it's all three together. The ratios over time, retention, interest, usage, and awareness.

Robbie Wagner: [36:57] No.

Chuck Carpenter: [36:59] Oh, no. You're right.

Robbie Wagner: [36:59] I think it's selective retention.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:01] Yeah, if that's default.

Robbie Wagner: [37:02] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:02] So the retention is bad.

Robbie Wagner: [37:03] So interest goes from 11.6% last year to 13.4% this year, or 2021 to 2022. It's 2023 now, but you know what I mean.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:15] I'll concede that, but I'm not sure you can hang your hat on that.

Robbie Wagner: [37:17] One, so no, no, I'm just saying that, like, that is just a small win for me because React goes down.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:25] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [37:26] Let's see, from 48 to 47. So suck it, React.

Chuck Carpenter: [37:31] Which would make sense to me in general because I think React independently is not a great application framework. Right. It's not intended to be a framework. It was released as a Vue library that has been askewed from that path, either forcibly on a developer side, and conversely, as they iterate through versions, they've started to do way more with it than was kind of intended.

Robbie Wagner: [38:01] Yeah, so.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:04] Like the fact that it might drop a bit, and then when you start to look at things like the overall actual application framework and you have things like Next.js. Then it's going to kind of do better. It should because this is a way to deal with it. That makes more sense, really.

Robbie Wagner: [38:21] Right. So with that in mind, if you go back to that first libraries tab and scroll down past the crazy graph, there's a library tier list which shows you all the stuff that's really high, great ratings. And then you have ABC for the next ones or whatever. So the stuff that everyone's really happy with is like Vite is 98%, Vitest 97, esbuild 95, Playwright 95. I can't tell what this is some kind of testing library, but it's cut off.

Chuck Carpenter: [38:54] I think it's just called testing library or something. I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [38:57] Maybe PNPM is 92, TSC 90%, Next.js is in there, 90%. And then Svelte is the only UI framework that's in that really high tier. And then React. I imagine React was in that high tier a year or two ago, and now they're in like A.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:17] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [39:17] All the things that we kind of think of as everyone learned within the last five years or so is like React, Jest, I don't know what else. I guess those are the main Facebook things, but like NPM is in there, Cypress is in there. Not that their legacy, but they're like a thing that big enterprise apps are probably using now. So that's become not cool because it's like so ingrained, you know, what I mean? I think that's why they're down a little. And then Nuxt is in A as well. I think Nuxt should be up higher. I don't know what people didn't like about Nuxt. It does just as much for you as next, in my opinion.

Chuck Carpenter: [39:56] It's just that Vue isn't as high either. Right? Yeah. Vue is a little lower and so maybe it's just Vue adoption is lower. I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [40:05] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:05] Hard to say.

Robbie Wagner: [40:06] Yeah. Angular is down in C.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:09] Yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [40:09] Ember is not even on here. I guess Ember got a D.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:15] Well, yeah. Cypress in an A and Playwright in an S, whatever that means. Like super cool. Way better than A.

Robbie Wagner: [40:24] Yeah. Like, should use. I don't know.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:26] I have found it pleasant more recently. So in doing a sort of Pepsi Challenge between the two, I have found it fairly straightforward and pleasant. So that's good.

Robbie Wagner: [40:37] Yeah. If people listen to the episode that comes out in a couple of days, well, you will have already listened to it when you hear this one, but we'll discuss that more.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:47] I like how every mobile and desktop, whatever framework or library wrappers is B and C or below because.

Robbie Wagner: [40:56] They all suck.

Chuck Carpenter: [40:57] They might be better than some or give you a window in, but they're all pretty hard to use, I think. I don't know. I think they're all challenging in their own ways.

Robbie Wagner: [41:09] I think this is very telling to see Webpack at the very end of B, and Vite is, like, the highest-rated thing that exists.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:19] Right.

Robbie Wagner: [41:20] Let's get off Webpack, everybody.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:21] Yeah, it was a trusted friend for a while, and it's just iterative, right? Can you just look at the next most productive thing and move on?

Robbie Wagner: [41:32] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:32] That's what I say. I'm not emotionally attached to any of these things. I might have, like, syntactical preferences and or ideological preferences and things like that, but at the end of the day, sort of like, what's working, what frustrates me, what fixes that, those kinds of things.

Chuck Carpenter: [41:52] Yeah. I think it would be interesting to go through each of these library tabs, maybe not line by line, but talk about kind of some of the different things. So I feel like we should save that for a follow-up episode if we are so inclined. So you may or may not hear that later, but we should just move to some whatnot stuff, because I don't want to go line by line right now. I've lost interest.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:16] So what you're saying is your feelings are hurt, that Ember is just not even in this chart.

Robbie Wagner: [42:21] Well, we just don't have enough time because I'd like to go through and be like, all right, let's give a teaser. Front-end frameworks. So we're like, oh, let's see what the experience over time chart says. Like, React shows this, Vue shows this. Or we have to go through every single one, but we could pick the ones we like or the ones that are upcoming and talk about why we think that is or all of that stuff. I think that would take longer than ten minutes.

Chuck Carpenter: [42:48] Well, here's the thing. In the future, we can always add little tidbits to circle back to. I just want to note that we didn't make this survey at all, and I take that as a personal challenge. Hopefully, next year we can be as fucked up and entertaining enough as possible to possibly make at all any mention. I'll go on the other answers tab. Totally fine with that. Can we get, like, at least I need a minimum of 18 people to get ahead of Hipsters Pontotech?

Robbie Wagner: [43:20] Wait, where is this?

Chuck Carpenter: [43:21] So if you go to resources and scroll down to podcasts, and then there's main answers and other answers, which means anyone who put in something for other and see what you get there. Dev.To apparently has a podcast. Had no idea. Soft Skills Engineering. Sure, that sounds great. Anyway, Angular Plus Show had 20 votes, and Hipsters Pontotech had 18.

Robbie Wagner: [43:45] Okay, so you just need at least 18. I guess.

Chuck Carpenter: [43:48] In this case, we needed just 18. We didn't get that, so.

Robbie Wagner: [43:52] Wow. I am disappointed in everyone. Like, we have, you know, enough people to have made this list. Just no one wrote us in, so. I am sad.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:03] Well, we didn't make a push for it. Right. So maybe, like, asking for a vote on this is people do that, you know, I'll tell you, get votes and win things. I guess I wasn't trying to win, but I do want to be on it. Didn't think I wanted to. Didn't see us there. And I'm like, now I feel like we can do this.

Robbie Wagner: [44:20] Yeah. Now I think we can make it next year.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:22] Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [44:23] And if we don't, we're quitting the podcast. Yeah, you heard it here first.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:25] Yeah, here it is. We either get on here, or we're out. What's the point? We're clearly not having fun or getting drunk. Hell with this.

Robbie Wagner: [44:32] I also want to be in the people.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:34] Oh.

Robbie Wagner: [44:35] That might take some more work.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:36] That's going to be a little harder. Yeah. Because if we could just get our guests for the year to vote for us, potentially, that might be enough. And we'll have bought them off with whiskey, so.

Robbie Wagner: [44:47] Yeah, we'll get there.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:48] All right.

Robbie Wagner: [44:49] All right.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:50] So whatnot, what things. Whatnot?

Robbie Wagner: [44:54] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [44:54] How was your weekend? We had a holiday weekend, although I struggle to call it like it's a holiday in the sense that we're given time off, but to be more respectful, it's like holiday.

Robbie Wagner: [45:05] Yeah. I don't know. I mean, the definition of holiday is, like, up in the air, I guess.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:11] But Madonna says celebrate. That's all I know.

Robbie Wagner: [45:14] I think the problem with holidays that are meant for remembrance or, like, a thing that's supposed to be solemn or whatever, people never do that. Like, Memorial Day is like, supposed to remember all the people that have died or whatever. It's like, no, let's go party at the lake. That's what it's for.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:33] The picnic with a flag tank top at the lake. Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [45:39] So I think you lose a little bit of the intention, but nevertheless.

Chuck Carpenter: [45:43] Aside from that, how was your long weekend?

Robbie Wagner: [45:46] Good. It was interesting because Katelynn's family came into town, and Odi likes to kill everyone. So I basically had to hang out with the dogs in isolation for most of the weekend. But it gave me a chance to catch up on some work and finish watching all of The Walking Dead because I've been watching that since it started many, many years ago. And I don't know. Have you watched The Walking Dead? Are you into that or no.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:14] I was until I think about season four, it kind of jumped the shark for me, and then I was like, I can't.

Robbie Wagner: [46:21] Yeah, so I don't want to give spoilers away, I guess, but I guess this isn't going to be a spoiler, or no, it will be.

Chuck Carpenter: [46:31] Damn, it's like ten years in. What are you going to do?

Robbie Wagner: [46:33] Well, but it's a spoiler for, like, the last season. That's only like a year ago, so it just came out on Netflix, so I won't spoil it. But basically, there were things I wanted to happen that had been alluded to throughout the many seasons, and they did not. So it was good. Like, the ending was good, but some things didn't happen correctly. And it alluded to basically that these things could happen in some of our six spin-off shows. And I'm like, I'm not watching all six spin-off shows, so I'm just going to have to Google what happens, I guess, right?

Chuck Carpenter: [47:10] Yeah. Okay. So you are not a fan or reader of the comic, then?

Robbie Wagner: [47:15] No.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:16] And I know the story is kind of they kind of split anyway, so it's not like it followed it exactly after a certain point, from my understanding. I read, like, I think the I don't know, I read a handful or so of the comic.

Robbie Wagner: [47:27] Yeah. I'm not sure how they were compared to, I would guess, the first season or two were somewhat faithful because that's kind of what people really loved. And then everyone kind of dropped off because they're like, I don't know, just didn't fit right or whatever. But I may have mentioned this before, but if I start a show and it's not literally the worst show ever, I'm in until they stop making it. I want to know what happens. So I watch all of them.

Chuck Carpenter: [47:58] Yeah, I used to be that way. And then once you cross 40, I'm like, you know what, if I don't like this, I'm going to stop. I used to feel obligated to finish shows or finish books, any of those things you start, and at a certain point, I was like, wait a minute, I'm not getting graded on this. I don't have to read this shitty book anymore. I don't like it and put it down and move on.

Robbie Wagner: [48:21] So you're saying that my need to finish all these things has been ingrained from the public schooling system that tells you you need to finish everything?

Chuck Carpenter: [48:29] Exactly, I think it is. And then I think you hit a certain point in life where you're like, I'm running out of time. I can't waste it on this anymore.

Robbie Wagner: [48:36] That's fair.

Chuck Carpenter: [48:37] Yeah. Because I know I used to have the same feeling of like, oh, yeah, even if I didn't love it, at least I can say I finished it. Like I watched the movie Gone With the Wind. Here's a good example. Whatever. In my 20s because it was on American Movie Classics' 100 Greatest Movies Ever. So I was like, oh, I want to watch them all, and I'm going to see them all. And Gone with the Wind is a fucking horrible movie. I thought it was terrible.

Robbie Wagner: [49:01] I haven't seen it.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:02] It's extremely racist. I know it's based on a book, so it's obviously, like, about a point in time. And so you have to be obviously there's going to be some of that.

Robbie Wagner: [49:10] Right, right.

Chuck Carpenter: [49:11] But, like, just in general, it's also boring. Like, you're terrible people. This is boring. This is like there's nothing about this that I like. I watched it, though, because I started it and went through, I think, it's, like 3 hours. I don't know. It's like, might as well have been three weeks because it drowns on. And now I would definitely have just turned that off. I'd have been like. This isn't for me. It's fine.

Robbie Wagner: [49:33] Yeah, so I've watched all of SVU, and that's like, what, 24 seasons now or something? I don't even know. And the past two seasons were awful. But I was like, I'm just going to keep watching it because I've watched 22 seasons. Like, I might as well watch the next ones or whatever. And then it got better. It got amazing. It's so good now. They realized I think, that it was dragging along and brought back some excitement. And it's good. So that's why I never stopped because it could get better.

Chuck Carpenter: [50:07] Yeah, it could. Yeah, that's true. I mean, I've had a few where you go, like, six episodes. And that's true. I think if it's like, oh, it's kind of boring. I don't really know. And they've lost you a little bit. I can hang on for another episode or two, usually. And if it comes around, but if it's just like, oh, everybody's talking about this, or this is supposed to be so great, and you watch the first couple of episodes, I don't know. For me, I can't get engaged in that time. It's probably just not going to happen.

Robbie Wagner: [50:34] Yeah, that's fair.

Chuck Carpenter: [50:36] We've been watching The Vow. I'm in season two of, oh, no, not The Vow. We watched that before already. White Lotus. Sorry. We went from The Vow to White Lotus.

Robbie Wagner: [50:44] What is White Lotus?

Chuck Carpenter: [50:46] It is a show on HBO Max, about this crazy hotel. Apparently, it's like a hotel chain, and there's just all these nuts o things. So the first one is in Hawaii, and now they're in Italy, and Jennifer Coolidge is in both seasons. So there's some overlap with the characters and stuff, and I don't know, it's just like all these wacky, weird things that happen behind the scenes and at a hotel.

Robbie Wagner: [51:14] Is it like a real thing?

Chuck Carpenter: [51:16] No.

Robbie Wagner: [51:16] Or no? It's a drama.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:18] Yeah. I mean, it's a drama, but it's. Also, I can't even really understand fully the premise, in a way, to describe it, but what you can say is just like, you've got this quirky, kind of fucked up hotel staff, but it's, like, super high-end hotel, and they're responsible, providing this excellent experience to everyone. But then all the drama happening between guests and the staff and just, like, weird stuff, robberies and deaths and, I don't know, everything in between too. So it's almost like dark humor. I would almost put it as, like, a black comedy in a way.

Robbie Wagner: [51:53] Okay.

Chuck Carpenter: [51:53] So I don't know. It's interesting. I keep going with it. I go a little back and forth as to how much I'd recommend it, but it's interesting. I can't say, like, this is great, and I definitely wouldn't say it's bad. I would just say it's a little weird and interesting.

Robbie Wagner: [52:08] Yeah, I started watching The Witcher after I was done with Walking Dead.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:13]Okay.

Robbie Wagner: [52:14] So I've finished the first season of that.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:16] Is there a new season, or is this just your catching up?

Robbie Wagner: [52:19] There's a second season.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:20] Okay. Yeah, but that's not brand new, is it?

Robbie Wagner: [52:22] Witcher?

Robbie Wagner: [52:23] Yeah, no, I don't think so.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:25] Yeah. Okay, so I've watched all that, then I liked it because it's so campy with Superman is in it. Yeah. And so he's kind of campy, but it's interesting, and I like fantasy things, I think. I don't know. I wasn't familiar with the game until after watching that show, and then I was like, oh, yeah, I want to go more with this. Let's see what's up.

Robbie Wagner: [52:46] Did you play the game?

Chuck Carpenter: [52:48] I did, yeah. It's on Switch.

Robbie Wagner: [52:49] By the way, did you play some Gwent yet?

Chuck Carpenter: [52:52] No.

Robbie Wagner: [52:53] You got to play some Gwent. That's the only point in the game.

Chuck Carpenter: [52:55] Gwent is to play. What's the point?

Robbie Wagner: [52:58] Yeah, it's the card game inside of the game.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:03] Oh. Right. Yes. Oh, that's funny.

Robbie Wagner: [53:06] That's the most fun part.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:07] I've heard that from other people, too. I just played a little bit of the game. I think I was rolling off of Skyrim when I played that game because.

Robbie Wagner: [53:15] I was just like, oh, great.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:16] I want more open world, like, crazy character development stuff that you can do whatever you want.

Robbie Wagner: [53:22] Yeah, I think I saw a Tweet one time where someone was like, what's your favorite Zelda game and someone was like the Witcher Three because it's very similar in gameplay, except the monster battles and stuff are a little more in-depth than Zelda, but.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:36] That's funny.

Robbie Wagner: [53:37] And obviously, it's like darker than Zelda, but the feel of the gameplay is kind of similar.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:43] Well, today I learned, I don't know, I'm still working on my gaming PC Sim Racer setup thing.

Robbie Wagner: [53:51] Well, you got to have your Switch ready for the new actual Zelda comes out in May.

Chuck Carpenter: [53:56] Yes. And which is not called Breath of the Wild, too. It's like called something else altogether. Right?

Robbie Wagner: [54:00] It's like Tears of the Kingdom or something like that.

Chuck Carpenter: [54:03] Yeah, I know. I'm like the sole reason why I am glad I didn't sell my Switch during COVID for twice its original retail value because it's still more valuable to me now, being able to play that.

Robbie Wagner: [54:16] Yeah, I've got it preordered, and well, I guess we're over time. But I'll just say real quick that I also pre-ordered the Harry Potter game, like the Hogwarts Legacy or whatever that's coming out in, I think, February.

Chuck Carpenter: [54:29] Okay. That's another open-play game, though, right?

Robbie Wagner: [54:32] Yeah, it's open world. Hogwarts and Hogsmeade and somewhere else, like three places in the Harry Potter world that you can just explore. So it's fun just for that, even if you don't do the gameplay.

Chuck Carpenter: [54:43] Yeah. Okay. I think I saw something about it, so could be interested based on that. There the whole Harry Potter world. Is that Universal Studios? Do you know?

Robbie Wagner: [54:52] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [54:53] Okay. I'm going to be there next weekend, but for the purposes of EPL Fan Fest, so they're doing a whole Premier League morning, staying there over next weekend in Orlando. There being Orlando because, obviously, there's more than one Universal Studios clarifying them on that. So, yeah, going to go show up really early and yell about football or soccer, depending on where you live. And that's exciting. My team is actually starting to do really well or has been doing really well for a few games. We beat Manchester City last weekend, who are the current Premier League champions. So we're back.

Robbie Wagner: [55:34] So the World Cup is just like in the middle of a normal season. It's not like the end of a season.

Chuck Carpenter: [55:40] It wasn't supposed to be. So that's a whole very controversial thing. It's supposed to be over the summer and has been for all time. So that it's the off-season. Right. And it got switched because, obviously, it was in Qatar, which would fry people alive in the summer during the World Cup. So they rewarded it to Qatar like twelve years ago. And then, just a few years ago, they're like. Actually, we're not going to be able to do this in the summer. Even though they originally I think they originally promised that they would be air-conditioned closed top stadiums, and then they had to change the plan to stay on track, so they switched it to the winter.

Robbie Wagner: [56:17] Well, probably when thousands of workers died, they said, hey, we're going to not close this in.

Chuck Carpenter: [56:24] You know what? That didn't really stop them too much. It was more of a time because they have all the money and they don't care about people's lives. So the other thing would be we just don't have time. Turns out oil doesn't create time.

Robbie Wagner: [56:37] That's true.

Chuck Carpenter: [56:39] Food for thought. There, there was a learning point from the whole episode. Oil cannot make time.

Robbie Wagner: [56:44] Yeah. If you didn't already know, you know now. All right, thanks, everybody, for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe. Please leave us some ratings. If you're listening, just hit the five-star button. It's right on your screen. We really appreciate it, and we'll catch you next time.

Chuck Carpenter: [57:04] Thanks for listening to Whiskey Web and Whatnot. This podcast is brought to you by Ship Shape and produced by Podcast Royale. If you like this episode, consider sharing it with a friend or two and leave us a rating, maybe a review, as long as it's good.

Robbie Wagner: [57:19] You can subscribe to future episodes on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more info about Ship Shape and this show, check out our website at shipshape.io.