Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


101: Tech Interviews, Contract-To-Hire, and Authenticity with Taylor Desseyn

Show Notes

Navigating the current job market is proving to be a daunting task for developers, even experienced ones like Chuck. Does the hiring process need to be fixed?

Taylor Desseyn, former Managing Director at Vaco, and a seasoned recruiter with 12 years of experience, believes so. Taylor advocates for a much-needed shift in mindset among hiring managers, emphasizing the importance of meeting candidates where they are. He suggests measures such as contract-to-hire options and redo opportunities, allowing candidates to show their true potential beyond the limitations of a single interview. Taylor believes a new approach would invite more diversity and inclusion into the hiring process and make the experience more fair and effective for the candidates and the employers.

In this episode, Taylor talks to Robbie and Chuck about the flaws in the hiring process in the tech industry, the impact of hiring flaws on candidates, and potential solutions to create a more inclusive and effective system.

Key Takeaways

  • [00:54] - Introduction to Taylor Desseyn.
  • [01:47] - A whiskey review: Copper Sky Distillery Wheat Whiskey.
  • [09:30] - Why hiring is broken.
  • [26:41] - Podcasts that Taylor has on rotation.
  • [29:42] - Negative experiences with HOAs.
  • [32:43] - Taylor talks about his horses.
  • [44:21] - Taylor discusses his upbringing.


[11:18] - “To me, I would say that company missed out on a great talent, you, because they were too concerned about the industry.” ~ Taylor Desseyn

[22:50] - “I think 60% to 70% of the interview needs to be the company selling the opportunity to the candidate.” ~ Taylor Desseyn

[36:14] - “Because of COVID, one thing I’ve realized is that we’re all overworked.” ~ Taylor Desseyn


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[00:00:00] Robbie: What's going on everybody? Welcome to another whiskey web and whatnot. With myself, Robbie, the Wagner, and my co-host, as always, Charles William Carpenter III

[00:00:11] Chuck: Do it.

[00:00:12] Robbie: with our guest today. Taylor Desseyn. What's going on Taylor?

[00:00:16] Taylor: What's going on? I do not have a third or a second or a first. So I kind of feel a little left out on that one.

[00:00:21] Chuck: That's true. Well, I mean, you can't be an official host, but you can be a guest anytime.

[00:00:26] Taylor: Could I be a sire?

[00:00:28] Chuck: Ooh. Possibly you do have children, so, you have sired, so why not

[00:00:33] Taylor: There you go.

[00:00:34] Chuck: Taylor? The sire, the,

[00:00:36] Taylor: actually has a pretty good ring to it.

[00:00:38] Chuck: yeah. I like it. This is, this is some new branding. I, I expect to

[00:00:41] Taylor: is. I think we're just working on my new rebrand on the pod.

[00:00:44] Robbie: So, uh, yeah, before we jump in, can you give a quick intro into who you are and what you do?

[00:00:49] Taylor: you know, You guys caught me at a career transition, by the way. So, um, I, I am actually leaving, the company I've been at for 12 years. I'm very thankful for my time, so, I'm a [00:01:00] recruiter. So for those of you who do listen in the future um, if you're like, Nope, not listening to this episode, because this is a recruiter and I hate recruiters, please don't go. I promise it'll be good. But I've been doing it for 12 years now at a company called Vaco. We are a billion dollar staffing and consulting company. And Vaco really does it the right way. It just became apparent just with my journey and, and my passion for building community among engineers, that it makes sense for me to be at an engineering company and, and to be more ingrained in the, in, in the tech ecosystem. And so, I'm moving on and got some interviews and, and I'm looking at potentially joining a software consulting company very soon potentially. So,

[00:01:35] Chuck: Oh, big news. Big news. Very awesome. So I guess before we dive into all of that process and where hiring is these days, and, some of the many reasons we wanted to, to have this chat with you I think we should start with a whiskey though, and that that's why some people are here. All right,

[00:01:52] Robbie: that's why I'm here.

[00:01:54] Chuck: There you go. I wouldn't invite you otherwise. Today we're having the Copper Sky Distillery, which I [00:02:00] think they're outta Colorado. It is their wheat whiskey, wheated wheat like that. 100 proof. Um, Yeah, wheat Thins. Wheat Thins whiskey five years old.

[00:02:12] Taylor: little

[00:02:13] Chuck: you're going straight for the rocks. Okay. I'm not fooled by the ones you got. Yeah, a hundred proof five years old. I have batch seven. I'm assuming we kind of have the same, I don't know. Give or take a seven's a magic number. The mash bill is 51% corn, 45% wheat, and then 4% malted barley. So it should have a decent amount of sweetness to it, I think.

[00:02:34] Taylor: Mm. That is good. It's like a, it's like a summertime whiskey. Like you're kind of sitting on the porch and it's like 90 degrees outside and you got a tank top on and you're sweating a little bit in the armpits. I think. I think this is the

[00:02:45] Robbie: And you're like, you know what would be refreshing whiskey.

[00:02:48] Taylor: Yeah. A brown liquor

[00:02:50] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:02:51] Chuck: Well, you know, you know what will make me forget how damn hot I am whiskey.

[00:02:56] Taylor: yeah. There you go.

[00:02:58] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:02:59] Taylor: I like it.

[00:03:00] Robbie: s'mores in here.

[00:03:01] Taylor: Little creme brulee.

[00:03:03] Chuck: Ooh. Yeah. I was gonna say brown sugar. And so like toasted sugar or something could definitely be on that.

[00:03:09] Taylor: So boys can, can I be honest with y'all and tell you a quick story about my whiskey days?

[00:03:13] Chuck: Yes. Are your whiskey days over? And

[00:03:16] Taylor: Yeah. They're, they're way over because of jail. Yeah.

[00:03:19] Chuck: all right. Fair enough.

[00:03:20] Taylor: Yeah, so basically a little, little storytelling as y'all are doing a little sniffy sniff. Basically I was in a band, the band is called Cherry Case, not Chevy Chase, not Cherry Cake. Those were both on venue doors, but Cherry case. We moved to Nashville to do music like everyone else, right? And that's why I'm here. That's why I got here. I did the Honky tonks until 3:00 AM I did the touring, I did the studio row. But the last month before we were supposed to leave to Nashville our lead guitar player moved back from LA So we tried to make it, he left us, tried to make it in LA as like a pop guitarist moved back after a year. He never exuded the LA vibe. So our first night back we're so excited and, and we were leaving the next [00:04:00] month for Nashville, so we're like, let's go out. Okay. So we go out to like the one hipster bar. In a college town full of Sperrys and pink shorts and seersucker, right? I went to the University of South Carolina, go Gamecocks.

[00:04:14] Chuck: Yep. or just Cocks.

[00:04:16] Taylor: or just co actually all of the merch I have just says Cocks all over it. Um, And so, basically I will send you boys hats when, when I go back home. and so we went out, got a little crazy. So just to let you know, the type of bar, sticky floor bar, $5 Long Island iced tea pitchers $5. And one, $1 warm bourbon shots. And so at the time, we were the band that was leaving town to go make it in Nashville. And so everybody was buying us $1 lukewarm bourbon shots. And so your boy at the time, obviously I partook and I partook really hard. our guitar player's girlfriend was making her rounds kissing everybody. And my wife knows this story, so this is pure public information. uh, she [00:05:00] kissed me, don't remember at that point in the evening. And then they ran out and the boyfriend got mad at the girlfriend, like typical boyfriends do. And then the cops were called because there was obviously some yelling. And then they pulled up. We're still friends. He's actually a data scientist now. He was in my face and they took us to jail. And after that I swore off bourbon and whiskey. But this is really good stuff that you provided, so thank you.

[00:05:23] Chuck: Oh. Wow. So

[00:05:25] Taylor: if you guys gotta cut that out. I understand. But I just wanna give you a little backstory.

[00:05:28] Robbie: No, we don't cut anything. We're unedited here.

[00:05:31] Taylor: I love it.

[00:05:31] Chuck: Yeah, that's the whole point. It's kind of like whatever comes about, we got some like notes and whatever. Obviously the whiskey is kind of predetermined and the rest of it goes where it goes. I think that's kind of part of the fun.

[00:05:41] Taylor: I love it. I love it. Yeah. So, so that's my little story. Oh, and, and by the way, Robbie my grandparents lived on Twin Chimneys Drive. Please don't tell me you're on Twin Chimneys Drive.

[00:05:50] Robbie: I'm not, no.

[00:05:51] Taylor: Okay. All right. That

[00:05:52] Chuck: so we got at

[00:05:52] Taylor: It's like you're in my grandparents' old lake house.

[00:05:55] Chuck: that would've been the best. It turns out that like comes around full circle. So [00:06:00] we'll spend a few moments though coming back to the whiskey and then maybe talking about more whiskey esque associated stories. Okay, so yes, this one we have the tentacle scale, so it's one through eight, eight tentacles We're so clever. One being, I'd never, never have this again. It's disgusting. Eight being like, this is the best one ever. Give me nothing else. So four being kind of your average thing, and we'll kind of categorize things like, so this is a wheated bourbon, so you think about it in the ways of like your wellers or maker's mark or something of that nature. So typically we'll have some more sweetness to it. for this one, for me, yeah, I, I actually find it pretty tasty too. And I also like it it has a little burn on the way down. It's letting me know it's there without being like, too in my face or hurting my throat or giving me acid reflux, cuz I'm an old man. Definitely got like some of the, brown, sugary, maple kind of notes in the middle. I actually got some lemon rinds, like as it sat in my mouth for, for a moment. So like a little,

[00:06:58] Taylor: I, I even got some orange.

[00:06:59] Chuck: [00:07:00] yeah, yeah, yeah. some might say apricot depends, but,

[00:07:03] Robbie: every time.

[00:07:05] Chuck: Every time. No, no, I just throw it in there for Robbie. I don't recall the price point on this one cause I didn't order. It just shows up. Which sometimes will affect my opinions on this. I like it though. I, I like it a lot. I think that it has a lot of flavor and depth. Doesn't have like a spicy cinnamon bit to it. No, not at all. This is like quite smooth and easily sippable. I'm gonna give it a seven, which is surprising because like a lot of the things that I've had out of like smaller distilleries around the west and Colorado, yeah, it can be rough or it can be just like, okay, if I learned that this was like a $70 bottle, I'd still be like, okay with that I'd be like, well, yeah, but it's pretty good. It's age stated, they're doing these batches. Yeah, it hits all the right notes for me. So as a wheated whiskey, I would I'd give this a seven for me.

[00:07:53] Taylor: Robbie, what about you, man?

[00:07:54] Robbie: Yeah. I think for me this is about as good as the like weller, antique, [00:08:00] whatever that was. The one that was good, not the one that was bad.

[00:08:03] Chuck: Yeah. The, it's the 1 0 7, so it's the Weller antique 1 0 7. So it's 107 proof and highly wheated.

[00:08:09] Robbie: this is cheaper than that, and I would say it's about as good. So I'm, I think seven is right in line there. Seven

[00:08:16] Chuck: Yeah. The irony there is that before the great whiskey rush, like an antique bottle would cost you about 30 bucks. Now they're a hundred or so, but thanks Buffalo Trace for ruining that.

[00:08:27] Taylor: I'm gonna be honest with y'all. I don't, like I said, I don't really drink whiskey. It makes my body recoil. I'm giving this an eight and it makes me feel better that y'all were a seven because like, you know, you think it's that good for a guy who just, I just poured a little more for whatever it's worth. So, like, this is, it's really good. So I'm gonna give it an 8.

[00:08:47] Chuck: Do me a favor. Don't end up in jail tonight. I'm gonna feel

[00:08:50] Taylor: I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tweet at you guys, like, I'm actually going out with a buddy of mine after this and I'm gonna tweet y'all. Hey guys. Headed to jail again. We, I got really stop whiskey [00:09:00] from here on out.

[00:09:00] Chuck: look, looks like we, yeah. I just don't wanna learn that. Like you were on the wagon and then we sent you whiskey and it's just a downward spiral from here.

[00:09:10] Taylor: no, no, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm having tacos after this, so we'll be good.

[00:09:13] Chuck: yeah. Yeah. You'll switch to tequila and it no longer becomes our fault.

[00:09:17] Taylor: Yeah, it's never not y'all's problem after that.

[00:09:20] Chuck: Oh gosh. All righty. So we had a couple of hot takes we were gonna talk about today as well. So we just take a look at, uh, things people talk about in tech Twitter, although I think this the first discussion goes well beyond that, obviously. We were all at Render together. You were on a panel with Kelly Vaughn and you guys were just talking about like, what is going on with hiring? Full disclosure, I'm on the market. I've been feeling the pain for a while and I'm like, what the hell is this? From like, the last time I was actually looking like before it was you have a network and you have a couple of referrals and you just kind of decide where you want to go next and [00:10:00] work with your friends and do some cool things. And I've been through the ringer, a number of like eight step loops that have like, Been misses based on very small like minutia, like industry I'm in or whatever else, like, so is hiring broken is the big question. And I'm sure we can go all over the place with it, but like, what's up with hiring?

[00:10:23] Taylor: I think the, the headline is yes, hiring is broken, I think, but I think it's, it's, it's very software development. Like y'all always say it depends. It, it really depends, right? And It depends based off of who you're interviewing with. But the problem is, is that it, it needs to be, more approachable. I'm not asking for a standardization. Like I was talking to somebody, I think it was this morning on my podcast. I do have one as well. We were like, there should be a way to like standardize like, at least like the first bar of interviews across the tech industry. But the problem is it will never happen. And so, all we can do is have these podcasts and, try to help educate even one hiring manager to change the process. Right? Like I would tell you, like, it's [00:11:00] frustrating the fact that you were rejected for a job because of an industry, It's like really at the end of the day, we're solving problems. And problem solving is problem solving. Is problem solving, To me, I would say you missed out that company missed out on a great talent, right? You, because they were too concerned about the industry. And so you know, I'm really big on creating a massive funnel, massive pipeline. One of the talks I'm giving next, next month at That Conference up in Wisconsin, I'm keynoting, but one of my sub talks I'm giving is, is manifesto in hiring. And it's essentially a checklist for what companies need to do. And companies think they need to go, like, five people in the first round, three people in the second round, one person in the final round, when in actuality you really should probably have like five people going into the final round because of the way interviewing works. But the problem is, is that hiring managers just, they just cut it off way too early, and then they're left with not a lot of diversity, not a lot of people. And then they're back to square one, and then they try to force a, I should say, a square hole in a round peg. So there you go. The whiskeys are,

[00:11:57] Chuck: That's already started. Yeah. No, I, [00:12:00] okay, so I do wanna regress back a little bit there to something you said too is you are not advocating necessarily for standardization, but I do think it's maybe a potential interesting question, right? Because if you compare it to a lot of other industries, like a doctor doesn't go in and perform a surgery to show that they know how to do it right. To get on at a hospital. Right. There's standardization around, like proving that you have the knowledge and accreditation to that. So that, that right there, I wonder if there's a way to like have

[00:12:31] Taylor: well there is, there is, it's called contract to hire.

[00:12:35] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. There's that too

[00:12:36] Taylor: is the problem is is that, and I understand it for there, there's a lot there to unpack, right? People are gonna hear this like, great typical recruiter contract to hire. I, listen, I get it. I've heard all of it. I've been in it for 12 years.

[00:12:47] Taylor: The reason why I just think contract to hire is the best solution for both sides is because realistically, so I'm, I'm in the interview process right now, right? It's very meta and I'm documenting the whole thing, like a recruiter in the interview process, [00:13:00] documenting it. And the one thing I'm realizing is that you can't even talk about all the things you wanna talk about in an interview process. Like in full transparency. And if my future employer, heres this, you know, down the road, here we are I'm close to a potentially a few offers and I don't know much about what's going on. Because there hasn't even been the time to even get, the second, third, fourth layer of what the company's doing and the goals and all that. And so that's why I think contract to hire works so well is because it allows the company to get a six month, three month overview of how that person works in their environment. But again, the problem is, is benefits and, and what are you gonna do if it doesn't work out? I mean, listen, I understand all of it. If there was a way to somehow keep contract to hire and have the benefits, which by the way, I don't know if this is like in every state I literally just signed up for benefits for my family, not even through the company. I just signed up for benefits through Farm Bureau. So now I have benefits whether I go with the company or not. And it was really easy for me. So I don't know if it's like that in every city, but I would, I would [00:14:00] employ people to look into that. Cause it was really easy for me to get, and it's better benefits than what I have right now. So, again, I think contract to hire is the answer to your question, but there's a lot to unpack there and how to standardize it too. For

[00:14:11] Chuck: I don't, yeah, I, I think I agree with that in the sense of it's basically fairly impossible to replicate the job in an interview process, you know? Right. The closest you

[00:14:23] Taylor: never even close. I mean,

[00:14:25] Chuck: The, I'd say the closest you can get is pair programming exercises. I'd advocate for, you're gonna work with this person and this is the work you're gonna do. The downside is, is there's really kind of no onboarding into familiarity and, people are nervous and so it's just like, obviously isn't a one-to-one, but it's almost as close as you can get from like a technical skills and thought process thing. But it is, regardless, it's still highly subjective. If I am interviewing someone and I'm pair programming with them, it is, whatever my interpretation of that is, is completely subjective to my [00:15:00] viewpoint and my experiences prior to that. So. Again, that I might be rejecting a candidate or be rejected as a candidate based on very subjective circumstances. That puts you closer to the quick to hire, quick to fire if it doesn't work out kind of thing. And that's both sides of the equation.

[00:15:18] Taylor: Hundred percent.

[00:15:19] Robbie: I think most of the interview process is stupid. If there's a leadership question, it's like, tell me about a time you did a thing. Like just because I answer it that way doesn't mean I can or cannot do the job any better than anyone else. So like to me, the best thing to do for technical jobs is like if you can show a lot of stuff, you've done examples of that and like stuff on GitHub or whatever. And then like for me, if I were interviewing, I'd just be like, prove that you're you. if I can see online all that you've done, and you just go, Hey, it's me. I go, cool, let's work together. Like.

[00:15:49] Taylor: Well, and that's what I wanna give a shout out to. B Dougie, Brian Douglas with Opensourced. He was on one of my podcasts. I have too, cuz a man couldn't have too many podcasts. But basically like what he's trying to do with like [00:16:00] GitHub trying to build a public portfolio. Really try to give a full picture of like what the candidate can do versus what's on the resume. Like, that's the type of stuff where I think companies are gonna have to start looking more ahead. And doing things like that, be more creative and again, it's about meeting people where they're at. That's what I've learned, right. Diversity, hiring, inclusion. I just got off a call about it, so that's why it's kind of fresh in my brain about that. You gotta meet people where they're at and, and the problem is it's backwards. It's like, you gotta meet us where we're at. And it's like, no, no. Like let's meet in the middle at least. And, and until that's fixed across the board, I think it's gonna consistently be an uphill battle.

[00:16:39] Chuck: Yeah, I think there's a a, perhaps there'll be some kind of massive reset in it. I mean, so it's interesting because it has felt like for so long the advantage was on the side of engineers, right. And it was sort of that, and now feels like it's been a quick pendulum swing the other [00:17:00] way, which, you know, and fair enough, there's control on that side of it. And so it's just swung really hard on that other side. So hopefully we can kind of meet somewhere in the middle and have some sanity in this process and so I've been at it for a few months and there's a real like, emotional and mental toll through this. Like, to go through these things and have like, oh my gosh, I have friends here and oh man, we're talking and I'm meeting all these people and it's going awesome. Can't wait to work together. You're my number one choice. This is pretty much a done deal. VPs are saying when we work together. Exactly. I met a, a CTO for 30 minutes and in a 30 minute timeframe where he controlled the conversation. I didn't give enough detail and context and a few things so then was not a unanimous through eight people Yes. Lost that. That's a blow. That's a serious blow.

[00:17:55] Robbie: There's a lot of weird stuff with like all the layers of interviewing, I just think all [00:18:00] of it is, like, most of it is wrong so I work for Amazon now, some background. We were interviewing for a, like, backfill role and they were like, oh, this person like, didn't do things like in Ember, like we use Ember and like they wanted it all to be tech stack specific or whatever. I thought he like blew away the requirements just using React. Me and this other guy were talking about how good he was and whatever. And somebody else was like, oh, well he didn't like, answered this one question the way I liked, and like that kind of shuts the whole thing down. And it's just like, I don't understand, like there needs to be a better system where like if one person has a bad experience interviewing you, that it doesn't shut the whole thing down. There's like a way to come back from that and say like, oh, I had a bad day that day. Like, here's some reasons why you should still hire me.

[00:18:44] Taylor: Golly, there's so much to unpack. I, I love talking about this shit. Can we curse? Is that fine? Is

[00:18:48] Chuck: Abso Abso-fucking-lutely.

[00:18:49] Taylor: Hell yeah. Um, so, uh, no, I mean, so I just got the phone with Carrot. So Carrot, what they're doing, they were at Render, they had some sick headshot. I don't know if you've seen the headshot coming outta [00:19:00] Carrot's booth, but it's so good. I'm so jealous that I didn't take advantage of that. But I just got on the phone with them they're actually helping increase diversity in the interviewing process and actually handling first rounds for like, some big companies. They're trying to standardize like what we're talking about. They have the option to do a do-over, they have talked with their companies that they have agreed with and like, listen, we want to give, and what they've noticed is that black engineers are two times more likely to use the redo. Than white engineers. And I think that's a fascinating, that's a fascinating observation. I think it's incredibly important to have something like that built in place, right? Listen, you're, you're not gonna get you on a good day. Listen, I, I've been interviewing now for two weeks. Shit's exhausting. and I have talked with people for a living for 12 years. the energy that you have, it's, it's like podcasting all day. Cuz let's face it, like you gotta bring another sense of like, I can't zone out with you guys right now cuz I'm gonna be like, whoa, what'd you say? It's gonna be a disaster. And you gotta [00:20:00] bring a certain amount of energy through the microphone for people to keep listening to you. You can't just sit here and cakewalk through it. And so it's like that with interviews and sometimes you're just not gonna hit it. You're just not, and it's like, as a hiring manager, you could be missing out. I'll never forget this story. It's Becca who is actually at Open Source Labs now with Brian as like their community head advocate. And she was telling me like a year or two ago, she was looking for jobs and there was a travel requirement for a job, it said, uh, four times a year. Well, she has three kids. And so she didn't submit a resume. And it's like, did that job actually need to travel four times a year or is it really one time a year? But they said four times because they just wanted to overcompensate just to make sure, but then you missed out on an amazing person like Becca, right? And so it's like, those are things companies have to keep in mind. And like with your interview, who, who cares? He missed one, one question. Like, who really,

[00:20:53] Chuck: Yes. Seven other people were like, yes, let's work together. We can't wait.

[00:20:57] Taylor: it, something's gotta be changed. And that's why [00:21:00] Kelly and I are so passionate about it. And that's, we've actually submitted our talk to a few conferences in the southeast together because. I've been a recruiter for 12 years. She's a director of engineering and, and, and we see it on both ends and we text all the time about what we're seeing and then it's really gotta be fixed. And I think it's gonna take people like us on this pod. It's gonna take podcasts to change it, unfortunately, cuz there's no other medium to get through to hiring managers than podcasts and content.

[00:21:22] Chuck: Yeah, just a strong public voice. I think that's what I still like about Twitter. People complain all the time, but is that you can be kind of transparent and real and, we're developing an audience. know, you have 14 podcasts. We have this one, and, uh, But yeah, no, I just think like being transparent and being open about your experiences without fear of, of retribution in some way, I guess. I mean, I feel like if somebody listens to my podcast and decides they wouldn't want to work with me, there's nothing more genuine than these discussions that I'm having uh, that we are having, you

[00:21:56] Taylor: You know, I, there's, there's another podcast his name's Tim Ross. [00:22:00] He was talking about vulnerability and he was talking about, you know what, I will accept anybody if they are vulnerable to me, even if they tell me they do not like me, cuz you know why He goes, I am meeting that person where they're at and if they feel comfortable enough telling me that that's okay and I can live with that, but it's the inauthenticity that I can't stand for. And, and it's the same thing with what you just said. if an employer doesn't wanna work with me because my floral shirts or my cursing, then I'm okay with that. And, and I really am because I wanna be at a place that I feel accepted, and I think that's what companies need to be mindful of when it comes to interviewing. Is that making people feel accepted. Cause I tell people, I think majority of the interview is backwards. Right. Robbie, kind of what, going back to you, like, I think 60%, 70% of the interview needs to be the company selling the opportunity to the candidate. Right now it's 70% of the candidate selling themselves to the company. When in actuality, the company has the, the, responsibility to make sure that, that individual feels comfort, people are like the family and I understand that analogy. People don't like that. But essentially you are, are coming into an [00:23:00] environment that is a family-esque type of environment. So you need to feel somewhat comfortable,

[00:23:05] Chuck: Yeah. In Robbie's case, we're talking about one of the traditional FAANG companies, and it's MAANG or whatever the hell it is now. They've always been known as being like the challenge to get in the door because you're gonna get a bunch of options and get rich, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? So they can set up their, gatekeepers however they want. At least. That's always been kind of the thought process. True or not, whatever, but the fact that that is like spread out and become part of, like, I mean, I've been, I've interviewed with startups that have a similar loop process and the fact that it's extended out and everybody's gate keeping at this point, but then you're not getting the same, monetary benefits, let's just be honest. You know, that's part of the game. It's not the only reason why I work, but I have a family to feed. I'm the sole provider. I'm like, money matters to a degree. It's, that's just the truth. And to like, Push those kinds of gates all over the place, I think is is [00:24:00] where some of the fallacy lies.

[00:24:02] Taylor: Well, and, and, and I talk about ego. I think there's a lot of ego wrapped up in hiring, right? So again, I was texting, you know, I was texting with somebody and their spouse is, interviewing. And they were like, there's another round, there's another round. And it's like, that round is there because that VP wants to have a say. There's all these people within organizations that want to have a say. I want to to pump my chest and, and make sure that I feel validated and heard. And the problem is, is that those egos are slowing down your interview process. When actuality, let's be honest, dude, you probably don't need to have that conversation cuz you're not even gonna manage that person. You're not even gonna see that person. So why the fuck are you even interviewing them? Right? I think again, there's so much ego wrapped up in hiring that the companies who can set their ego aside actually be intentional with the people who are interviewing the candidates that are actually gonna be involved from day to day. Just back, back out. Like for me, like when, the way I hire, I'll talk to you for 20 minutes. I would have three people that would interview you based off the [00:25:00] core, competencies that we would look for, right? One was culture, one was tech, tech ability within the recruiting space, and one was just overall processes and procedures. And it was like bang, bang, bang, bang. We offered. It's not hard. It's not hard.

[00:25:10] Chuck: there you go. Yeah, I agree. You have a need. They have a need. Is this a good fit? Is you seem like mutual success exists here. Great. You know

[00:25:20] Taylor: And then somebody on my team says, like, I, like, I'll never forget, there's one guy we interviewed and I was like, we need to hire this guy. Like, this guy's great. And literally my team goes, no, he won't work. And I was like, are you serious? And instead of like beating my chest and getting what I want, I said, you know what? You're right. Let's move on. And it was hard. It was so hard cause I was so ready for, I was thinking like, dollar signs, this guy's gonna take us to the moon. And then my team was like, no. And I was like, you know what I, I gotta respect that. Like I'm gonna put my ego aside. I'm gonna respect my team and make sure we keep the team intact and move on. AD SPOT

[00:25:51] Robbie: You were mentioning VPs want to have a say in everything and stuff, and I think that is just showing that they don't trust their directors and whoever they've hired. Like [00:26:00] if you really trust them, you shouldn't care. Be like, hire whoever's good for your team. See you later.

[00:26:05] Taylor: all. Trust. It boils down to trust and ego. Lack of ego and trust.

[00:26:10] Robbie: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:11] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. Ego. Ego is is the, what is that? There's a book, like Ego Is the Enemy or something

[00:26:17] Taylor: don't read, so

[00:26:18] Chuck: Uh, maybe an audio book or something. Uh, yeah. It's uh, the stoicism guy who has a book sh Anyway, ego is the Enemy, I think is what it's called. We, it's available in audiobook. Guys, come on. I know you'll listen. You both had bands.

[00:26:31] Robbie: Can you read it for me, like out

[00:26:33] Taylor: I have, I have, I, here's the deal. I have like two podcasts on rotation and my wife always sends me like podcasts that she lists to and I never do. She's like, why don't you ever lose? My podcast i's like, I got the same two podcasts on rotation and if, and if I don't got enough time, I'm not gonna work in another one.

[00:26:44] Chuck: I'm okay. I'm curious as to what, they are. What are the two?

[00:26:48] Taylor: yeah. So, I do gotta give a plug. I'm actually in, I bought an N F T,

[00:26:53] Robbie: Ooh.

[00:26:54] Chuck: Rug pull

[00:26:55] Taylor: not, it wasn't really an N F T, it was like a, it was like a, it's an N F T, but it's not like you could buy with your credit [00:27:00] card. But um, essentially their name is um, group chat. They're fantastic. They are three guys out in LA their network is vast coming from a financial background, economics background, but they're just dudes like us and they talk politics and culture and so I would highly check them out, group chat. The other one I listened to off the top of my head is hold on real

[00:27:20] Chuck: whiskey, web, and whatnot. What? Oh.

[00:27:22] Taylor: Yeah, is, is, is actually, so another one too long-winded by nature. It's Tim Ano, he's an executive at a modern day agency up in New York and he has over a million followers on TikTok. And he, he became famous cuz of his vlogs and he has a po he has a business podcast where he actually just talks to you like, he talks about new hires and how to be successful in the workplace. And it's like, so I'm, I'm all about tactical, practical information. That's why my podcast guidance counselor 2.0 is based around specific things a person can take in the job search or hiring. Cuz I think there's a lot of fluff out there in today's podcast world. And so, I like Tim Chanos podcast as

[00:27:57] Chuck: Yeah. See this is where we've traded [00:28:00] places cuz I might read books, but my podcasts are really like guilty pleasures kind of thing. Like I've been rolling through Smartless for the last couple of months. It's funny, it's off the cuff. There's some famous people, funny stories, you know, the Hollywood entrenched. I don't know. I'm just, I just find it super interesting. And then the host are all pretty funny, so I don't, you know, here we go. We've switched. You Are gaining knowledge and,

[00:28:23] Robbie: that Chris Coyer is not famous or funny? You can't listen to shop talk and get both funny and uh,

[00:28:30] Taylor: Watch out. He may listen to this one.

[00:28:32] Chuck: I mean, I think he's famous in certain circles. Obviously he got in the state of js. He, he's been around forever. I, you know, everybody's been on CSS tricks a hundred different times to help them solve, centering a div and, you know, things like that. And nice guy, very funny in person. So yeah, I, I think like when I put on a podcast, I'm kind of just disconnecting, so I don't want to be like, oh, I'm back in tech now because it's usually, I. I don't know, driving somewhere or something of that nature. So I [00:29:00] will tailor the, the, the hack for your Wife, getting You to listen to all the podcasts that she wants is just go on a road trip with her, and then she takes over, obviously radio controls, and then, oh, kids are in the back watching a movie on iPad plugs in crime junkies or something else. Where, which by the way, I will never betray my wife because she knows how to get away with murder. She's listened to too many things where people disappear or get murdered and whatever else. I'm like, okay, healthy fear here. But yeah, that's, that's exactly, exactly. Now we should get really to an important question.

[00:29:35] Chuck: Okay. Speaking of hot takes and things on Twitter or whatever else HOAs, yay or nay?

[00:29:40] Taylor: That was crazy. Vic tweeted that and then Wheeler got involved and like, that shit was wild. I, what, what was that about?

[00:29:48] Chuck: I don't even know. It's just these tangents just

[00:29:51] Robbie: give me some backstory here. What happened?

[00:29:53] Taylor: Vic, he's a, what, senior developer at Twillio, I think. He's in Raleigh. He tweeted something, complained about his [00:30:00] hoa, which I had an HOA when I lived on the other side of Nashville when I was single. And that, that was crazy. It was basically like somebody was watching you at all times. It was the weirdest thing I was dating my now wife at the time, and she would come over and like, go on walks while I was working and like, they would stop her and be like, Hey, like just a heads up. Do you know somebody here? Why are you walking? Be careful. There's, and she was stopped on multiple occasions to the point where she stopped walking. And again, I just caught snippets of it on the internet. But it is a thing and, and my experience with HOA is not been positive.

[00:30:33] Chuck: I think it ends up being, A bunch of boomers yelling about like the shade of tan or how many weeds in are in your, your yard or something of that nature.

[00:30:41] Taylor: It's just people getting bored. It's old people getting bored who don't have hobbies. I mean, at the end of the day, that's what it

[00:30:45] Chuck: Yeah. I don't wanna overly generalize, but it does kind of

[00:30:48] Taylor: Old people get hobbies.

[00:30:50] Chuck: yeah, just get other hobbies,

[00:30:51] Taylor: listen to crime podcasts

[00:30:52] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:53] Robbie: you Go

[00:30:54] Chuck: Go on a walk and don't Yeah. Listen to this one. Yeah. Go on a walk and don't bother the other walkers. [00:31:00]

[00:31:00] Taylor: Seriously. Seriously.

[00:31:01] Robbie: Yeah. The, uh, house we're moving into has a lot of weird stuff in their HOA docs. Like, I think it's all innocent enough, but it's stuff like, you can't keep your garage door open. Like it must be closed. There can be no trash on the premises and like, you can't park a car outside, like your car has to be in the garage.

[00:31:18] Taylor: was the worst situation.

[00:31:20] Robbie: Yeah. It's, it's weird stuff that I'm like, do you really care? Like, is someone gonna walk by and be like, Hey, I see your car's outside. Like,

[00:31:28] Taylor: Yeah. I mean, in my condo complex they did.

[00:31:31] Chuck: It's a reason why some normal size houses here in Arizona have three and four car garages. Everybody drives everywhere. It's kind of like LA like culture. There's just, everybody drives, everybody has a second car or like third, fourth car because if you have teenagers, then they need their own car, and some of these HOAs force you to be parked inside, so you can't just have a car sitting in your own damn driveway and you pay for this privilege. So, and I've seen the extreme cases of why HOAs exist because [00:32:00] somebody paints their house purple or something and drags someone else's property value, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And the houses, and some of these, subdivisions are close and so then it's like, oh, I gotta stare at this thing all the time. I dunno, I, I guess I get the extreme cases, but it feels like it's an overkill correction.

[00:32:18] Taylor: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah. I, I know much more about hiring than I do HOAs, so.

[00:32:23] Chuck: same. Same. I never, I've b purposely because I've heard always nightmare stories. I've always avoided that, so I'm like, oh, HOA, I'm out. Not buying, not renting. There, don't want anything to do with it.

[00:32:33] Robbie: Something that, uh, HOAs would not approve of. Tell us about uh, all the horses on your property. Are all those yours or uh...

[00:32:43] Taylor: Yeah. Um, yeah, pretty fortunate. we lived in the quote unquote hip side of town in east Nashville. For a long time. My wife saw it, she, she bought a house for. Around $200,000 back in 2000 I think 11 or 12. And, uh, we sold it for seven [00:33:00] 60, She grew up riding horses and we always wanted to get some land and so we um, we found a place 25 minutes north of downtown. Like literally after this pod I'm going downtown to hang out with my buddy and, and in East Nashville and 25 minutes. And so we have 15 acres up here and we have four horses and she's got another six or seven back at her parents' house up in Kentucky. Um,

[00:33:20] Chuck: What

[00:33:21] Robbie: Ooh,

[00:33:21] Chuck: finish,

[00:33:23] Taylor: go ahead. No, your face was, was pretty, was pretty incredible. You were, you were shocked about something that just happened.

[00:33:28] Chuck: well, there's just so many overlaps here. Like you were saying, you spent a lot of time in Roanoke, where and on whatever Magic lake that Robbie's living at right now. Smith Mountain. Yeah. Now, now that you said it, I might go there. I don't trust Robbie that much, but um, yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah. Could, could happen. T B D. So I grew up in Kentucky, Northern Kentucky, right on the Ohio River across from Cincinnati. yeah, I was born in Covington. So you know what Covington is.

[00:33:56] Taylor: awesome. So I, yeah, so, so I did some consulting [00:34:00] work for our Cincinnati office on content creation for about six to nine months. And we ate dinner in Covington and, and hung out there. So that was great. And, and my, my guy who helps head up my content he's based outta Lexington, but one of my videographers outta Covington, so

[00:34:12] Chuck: That is so funny. So where in Kentucky is she from?

[00:34:15] Taylor: Bowling Green,

[00:34:16] Chuck: Oh, okay. Yeah.

[00:34:17] Taylor: so basically Tennessee. I mean, it's like right across the state line. But yeah, she, her, her parents, we were looking for a farm like her parents. Her parents has 20 acres of like rolling hills and it's just beautiful. And we, we got it pretty close. We got it pretty close. We don't have quite the hills. but uh, our house does sit on a little slight slope and. I'll tell you this, if we're ever invaded by zombies or aliens I think we'll be good. Cause we have a 360 view of the entire property.

[00:34:40] Chuck: Oh, nice. So you've got a good complex. Yeah, A

[00:34:43] Robbie: Yeah. Do you have to uh, bush hog all your fields or do you hire someone to do it?

[00:34:49] Taylor: No, uh, so my wife, so, uh, we have reverse gender roles in this household, so I do all the laundry, and cleaning, and she does all the handy work. Um, and I'm totally comfortable with that. We bought a, [00:35:00] a rugged grasshopper and she, she was mowing along yesterday, so speeding around this thing on a 360 turn type lawnmower. So it's like watching her drive a nascar.

[00:35:10] Chuck: Yeah, the ying yang kind of balance. That's nice. I mean, as long as somebody's doing it right.

[00:35:15] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:35:15] Taylor: I, I, I wear floral shirts and, don't get my hands dirty and just talk on podcast all day.

[00:35:21] Chuck: That's all right. Nothing wrong with that. If it's working, make it go with it.

[00:35:25] Robbie: we just sold our house like a month ago now, I guess. We had 10 acres and I was bush hogging that all the time. I don't want that anymore.

[00:35:33] Chuck: I was gonna say, it turns out for Robbie, farm is not, not the answer. But you tried, you gave it a real swing.

[00:35:39] Taylor: It's so peaceful. There's so much people in tech that have left tech to do farm stuff. I mean, especially during Covid, especially on Twitter, I saw a lot of people are like, I'm out. I'm gonna go to a ranch. I know there's one guy on Twitter, like just left tech altogether and just was just to try to get out And I think there's, I think there's a lot there, right? I mean, I think there's a lot of brain fatigue and, and I think there's [00:36:00] just a lot of fatigue in general, especially cuz of covid. One thing I've realized is we're all overworked. We just are like, we took on a lot and a lot of us haven't been able to kind of release that workload. And so I think there's a lot of similarities with tech folks of getting out and doing stuff. I think I saw on Twitter a while back, like some guy from, he was like a tenured Microsoft guy, finally left, just started gardening. There's just a lot there. Cause I think just our brains are fried and I think we need space and I'm really big on that creative, like during this transition for me about, you know, leaving my job I'm watching like a lot of YouTube to get inspired right? To create and to create content. Cause that's what I do kind of full time. And that's what I'm looking to do in the next company is kind of be their, basically create meaningful content for that company. And trying to give yourself space is something that's very difficult. I think people struggle with tremendously. You know, I've talked with a lot of senior leaders in tech about writing in breaks and sprint planning for their engineers because at the end of the day, like, you know, let's face it, a lot of engineering problems are solved when you're walking, not when you're in front of the computer screen.

[00:36:59] Chuck: Right. [00:37:00] That's the problem with hourly billing. We talk about an agency who has to bill hourly when the brain trust is, and or when people micromanage. Are you in front of your computer? Are you hands on keyboard?

[00:37:10] Robbie: Yeah. What did you do for the last 47 seconds?

[00:37:14] Chuck: right, exactly. Like

[00:37:15] Taylor: I went to the bathroom, relax.

[00:37:16] Chuck: yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I'll do it in in your chair next time. Come into the office.

[00:37:22] Taylor: Today's actually been one of those days. I finally am getting water in my system right now with the whiskey. So like, it's been one of those days where I haven't been able to get out to even get water yet.

[00:37:31] Chuck: Yeah. So what, today's vlog is gonna be real boring, is what you're saying.

[00:37:35] Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. My wife's so funny. the only thing my wife watches on my social, cause she's like, you just post a lot. And I go, I understand. Like it's not meant to be consumed every single time. But she does watch my vlogs every day. And she was like, I was like, I was like, Hey, like I'm trying a different style. Like I'm trying to do more, more cuts, make it more engaging. She goes, I'm gonna be honest. Taylor kind of looks a little boring. You're kind of just at your desk the whole time. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I understand that. I understand that. But I'm talking about everything else. She goes, yeah, it looks good. I said, okay, cool.

[00:37:59] Chuck: All right, [00:38:00] great. Yeah, you're like, this isn't gonna be like movie of the week,

[00:38:02] Taylor: yeah, but it's storytelling, right? And, and, and it makes you a better storyteller. And it makes, because it, again, like for me, you know, I, I've talked a lot about this with my content guy, you know, I'm like, should I go buy DSLR and like, try to start creating content out of a camera? And he was like, why? He was like, literally, people don't care. As long as it looks good and the audio's decent and it's filmed relatively well, people will consume whatever you put out. And so,

[00:38:27] Chuck: You know who does care? The other people doing it also. That's it.

[00:38:30] Taylor: Yeah.

[00:38:30] Chuck: Yeah, I'm like, oh, nice setup. I like this in the background, but most of your audience probably doesn't care.

[00:38:36] Taylor: No, and, and I mean, I can't tell you how many relationships I've made with a bunch of tech guys and gals who have farms and have messaged me outta nowhere, and there's like a bunch of recruiters out. There's a recruiter at Tesla, he messaged me the other day. He goes, dude, you have a Corgi. I was like, yeah. He goes, dude, I have one too. And proceeded to send each other pictures of corgis we've never met in person before. And so it's like, just the power of uh, that's what I'm really passionate about, right? The power of content, how it [00:39:00] endears you to your community, but then also from a company perspective, how do you seem more approachable in the marketplace, in your marketplace? And the way to do that is through content, whether it's vlogs or whether it's other types of content around, what y'all do or testimonials or case studies or stuff like that. So that's something I'm really passionate about.

[00:39:18] Chuck: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Although I think like counterpoint to that is we were talking earlier about the whole rushing out the farms after 10 years of just the grind and whatever else. I wonder if like the pace of just tech work in general has really started to burn people out, right?

[00:39:35] Taylor: it, It's an interesting, you know, kind of point where I'm at, right? Because I do content for business development, right? So there's a sales aspect to what I do, surprise, If I don't post for today, I could not reach that one person to get that one lead to get that one job. Right. So it's like, it's all so, like, there's this constant hamster wheel and so I'm definitely having to try to figure out balance for me and what that looks [00:40:00] like. And one of the things I do, so there's a lot of creators that, that vlog seven days a week. I don't vlog seven days a week. I do five days a week Monday through Friday. And then I do a whole weekend vlog on that next Monday to give myself two or three day break.

[00:40:14] Chuck: yeah, I think that would be highly necessary. Just us discussing it makes me a little tired.

[00:40:19] Robbie: Yeah. I think a lot of people too just like need to understand that there's not necessarily urgency. I find myself wanting to work a lot and being like, I gotta do this, I gotta do this, I gotta do this. But like, what if I don't that's fine too. Like no one's gonna be like, oh my God, you didn't do like this work. Because everyone tends to move slower than I do, and I'm like my worst critic of like, I need to do more, and people just need to chill.

[00:40:44] Chuck: Maybe you should redefine what more means to, you know, like is more to more pull requests or is more, reading a book that might help enhance, some other aspect of, of you that you want to develop or, you know, just recharging, [00:41:00] going for a walk

[00:41:00] Taylor: People have to find their escapism, right? Like, like I think, I think for me, I. Like, you know, my parents were big on reading. Like, I got burnt out of reading because of growing up and like grade school and just the amount of massive books and novels that they pushed on us, I was just done with reading done. Just like, you know what, like I'm, I'm tired of reading and that's still has, it's still today. I don't like reading. And so for me though, mine's like podcasting or playing ice hockey or you know, going, believe it or not, I'm actually enjoying, like being outside at night feeding the horses. I go out by myself. It's like therapy just to have quiet. But you gotta find what works for you. And I think too many people are trying to do what the other person said to do. And it's like, listen, like if, if you don't like it, that's okay. Just do what you enjoy and focus on that.

[00:41:50] Chuck: are you an, are you an introverted extrovert then? Do you go outside because you need away time to recharge?

[00:41:58] Taylor: I'm an introverted extrovert. Yes. I'm an [00:42:00] extremely introverted, I have over leveraged myself. I am running on fucking fumes right now

[00:42:04] Chuck: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:04] Taylor: from today,

[00:42:05] Chuck: Yeah. You're out there, boom, boom, boom, boom, and

[00:42:08] Taylor: but yeah, I mean, that's just the way I am. And, and, and it, and I mean, this is a whole nother conversation. I mean, and it took a toll in marriage early on and, and in my marriage. Nine years of my career. I worked in the office and I, and I hit, and this is obviously, we may be wrapping up here very soon, but this may be a little bit of a bomb drop, but like, I hit depression in 2018 pretty hard. And like my counselor was like, Hey, you need to like, seek out your, it was, we were in marriage counseling and my marriage counsel was like, listen, you gotta find somebody. Like, you're at a point where you, I would consider this depression and, and, for me is, What I realized is that I was so constantly stimulated at work, right? Because I was like meeting people day in, day out. I wasn't, I wasn't vlogging, I wasn't content creating that. I was just meeting so many people and I was around people in the office. It was just stimulation.

[00:42:53] Chuck: And you're on. And you're on, and you're on and

[00:42:57] Taylor: It's just, it's just on, yeah. Just on [00:43:00] consistently. And so, what I've realized now is that working from home has helped me so much because I can kind of have my own space and moderate the people coming at me at one time. Which has been huge.

[00:43:11] Chuck: Well, I'm glad you dropped that truth bomb. And I, I agree that that could be a whole other episode for us to discuss, cuz I think that's, you know, a reality too, like hiring is one thing and plays into all these other aspects, but like Yeah, mental wellbeing in tech, whether you have a job or not, I think that's its own thing as well.

[00:43:29] Taylor: Yeah. Oh, a hundred percent. And, and. You know, I've talked about that a lot with the job search is, you gotta find ba I mean, I'm in it right now. You gotta find balance, right? You can't crank out your job search eight hours a day. You just can't, uh, I think it spurts and you gotta give yourself breaks and, and you just gotta really be aware of how you're feeling. And I think people just try to barrel through it and they just become miserable.

[00:43:52] Chuck: Yeah. By your 30th rejection, which through the, the, the resume process, it's not as, as big of a deal. Once [00:44:00] you get, like, you know, past a hiring manager, you start to become more emotionally involved, but still, you know, you get a few bad hits and then you have four rejection emails one morning and you're like, what is the point today?

[00:44:12] Robbie: Yeah. So we do have like less than 10 minutes left here. I want to circle back to some of the Roanoke and Smith Mountain Lake talk and find out more about uh, your life there, or how much time you spent there.

[00:44:25] Taylor: so my mom and dad both met in Roanoke. Both my parents were military brats. My mom's side, her father was Air Force, my dad's side was Navy. My dad's side retired in Roanoke. And they sold real estate at Smith Mountain Lake. Honestly, if you talk to some old heads out there, they probably remember. Doty and Maurice Desseyn out there cuz they kind of own that area. And then my mom settled down Roanoke. I think her dad, my grandfather got like an, like a Amway sales job. And so that's where they kind of settled down. And so, my dad went to Cave Springs High School. My mom went to Patrick Henry High School. My dad was a lifeguard. That's how they met. So we grew up going up there a [00:45:00] lot. My grandmother um, lives on Stratford Park Drive um, which is,

[00:45:05] Chuck: Don't give the number. Don't give the number.

[00:45:06] Taylor: Yeah. is is by the Roanoke Wiener. Stand on. Um, it's, it's, it's

[00:45:11] Robbie: It's famous, Chuck.

[00:45:12] Chuck: I'm a child. I'm sorry. I'm,

[00:45:14] Taylor: Say it

[00:45:15] Chuck: it's, I'm a child. I'm sorry.

[00:45:16] Taylor: Yeah, it's all right. So there's that. And then my dad's family moved out. Smith Mountain Lake grew up every summer going up there. It was a big house, big family. We used to all kind of, go there that we would be there for like a week or two at a time when I was younger, you know, just such a special time. And and what's crazy is like you don't meet many people from Roanoke. Or, or even like, not from Roanoke, just even lived in Roanoke. It's a very small town. It's very historical and, and I get really excited. I don't know, it's, you know, I grew up trout fishing in the Roanoke Valley with, with my grandfather. I hated fishing, but it's, I hate it so much. It's like a good memory now cause it's like seared into my mind. Cause I hated it so much when I was younger that now it's like, oh, like I can remember it so well. And then my dad grew up sailing on Smith Mountain Lake. Man, it's just, it's just [00:46:00] beautiful. I love it up there. I, I like legit, if I had enough money, I would literally just buy a house in Roanoke and just like live there like six months outta the year. So I love it.

[00:46:07] Robbie: Well, we have enough houses here that you can use them if you want.

[00:46:12] Taylor: Say what?

[00:46:13] Robbie: We have enough houses here that you can use them. One of them, if you want, my parents have a Roanoke house and a Smith Mountain Lake house, so, uh, we're not using both at the same time. Yeah.

[00:46:22] Taylor: That's crazy. Well then I'll just hit you up next time. I just want to come, come out to Roanoke. I'm like, which one is your parents not at? I'll just come crash

[00:46:28] Chuck: right. I'm thinking I'm gonna sell my Phoenix house and then just, just basically be just crash back and forth and never pay a mortgage again.

[00:46:34] Taylor: Yeah. It's, It's, almost, it's, it would be almost like an adoption situation. We gotta like, go to the opposite house. You just kind like in transit,

[00:46:41] Chuck: yeah, yeah, yeah. I just take care of the other house while they're not there.

[00:46:45] Robbie: yeah. You're the caretaker.

[00:46:45] Chuck: Not a terrible thing.

[00:46:47] Taylor: No, but that's, that's so crazy. So, so for those of you who are still listening, you know, An hour through. Thank you. Robbie and I, we were, we weren't live yet. And, and I was like, you know, getting to know them and, and I was like, man, like, you know, where are you at? And he was like, well, Virginia. And [00:47:00] every time I hear Virginia I'm like, well, I'll Roanoke, right? Because Roanoke is like not close to like DC but I'm always like, Roanoke. And he's like, and then he's like, well, tell me more. And then, and then we end up finding out that uh, Robbie lives on Smith Mountain Lake right now where my grandparents lived, which is, that's crazy. Cause I've never met anybody who knows about Smith Mountain Lake. So,

[00:47:18] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. I never left like, I don't know, know how many miles it is, like a 60 mile radius or whatever. Cause I grew up in Roanoke and then went to college at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, and

[00:47:28] Taylor: you went to, oh, you went to Virginia Tech. Dude, that's a beautiful area too, ma'am. That's a beautiful area And then South Carolina's got Shane Beamer, Frank Beamer's son.

[00:47:36] Robbie: I know, Yeah. Yeah. I've watched a lot of, like, they did a, like ESPN special about uh, like South Carolina I think. And like, Frank Beamer was at one of the games and it was like a good special teams game or something, and he's like, that's the one you like dad, like, you

[00:47:49] Taylor: yeah. Our, our, our special teams at University of South Carolina is like literally one of the top. It's because it's Beamer Ball. Right. And that's just what they lived on. And it makes a huge difference. Roanoke is great and, and people are like, the [00:48:00] hell, I gotta go to Roanoke. This is like this, this ad spot. This, this podcast is sponsored by Roanoke.

[00:48:04] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:48:04] Chuck: Sponsored by the city of Roanoke.

[00:48:06] Robbie: Do you like train tracks? Come to Roanoke.

[00:48:09] Chuck: I.

[00:48:09] Taylor: If you like train tracks in a time capsule of a city, it's like, when I say time capsule, it's like, like the seventies and eighties, like there's some new development for sure. But like for the most part it's like, like when my parents go up there, it's like things are still the same from like the 70's.

[00:48:22] Robbie: yeah.

[00:48:22] Taylor: crazy.

[00:48:23] Robbie: Yep. Exact same.

[00:48:24] Chuck: I like train tracks. I used to hop trains to school. I was a bad kid.

[00:48:28] Taylor: That's cute. Also, Another thing too, they have more fairs like art fairs and craft fairs than any small town than And that may be my grandma finding all of 'em, but literally like there is always something going on in Roanoke for a town that size. It's crazy,

[00:48:41] Chuck: what, what else is grandma gonna do? She's going to the fair, I don't know.

[00:48:43] Taylor: dude. I'll tell you what, my, my grandma, she's like 85 years old and she's still active, like wearing, like walking with weights.

[00:48:50] Chuck: Nice.

[00:48:52] Taylor: It's cuz she's German.

[00:48:53] Chuck: yes.

[00:48:55] Taylor: which she has a crazy story. She escaped Hitler or her grandmother escaped Hitler. And well [00:49:00] she did. And she was bombed. And she has a piece of Berlin Wall in her apartment. It's crazy. Yeah, it's nuts. She's like off the boat, like off the boat and she learned English by nannying and watching cartoons with kids. Crazy.

[00:49:13] Chuck: that's, that's awesome though. That's a fun story/

[00:49:15] Taylor: Yeah. She makes a mean goulash too,

[00:49:18] Robbie: Oh, I love goulash.

[00:49:18] Chuck: oh, also,

[00:49:20] Taylor: I do too. It's so good.

[00:49:21] Robbie: Yeah. Talking about food and culture

[00:49:22] Chuck: Before I let you go, before we go down that path. Speaking of wieners I, I have so many questions, but I, I, I always, if anyone's been to the Cincinnati area, speaking of wieners Gold Star or Skyline,

[00:49:34] Taylor: I'm gonna be honest, it's all trash.

[00:49:36] Chuck: oh.

[00:49:37] Robbie: That's the right answer.

[00:49:38] Chuck: And we

[00:49:39] Taylor: I ha I'm gonna be honest, I haven't had I, what was the other one? Gold Star.

[00:49:42] Chuck: Gold Star. Chili is another,

[00:49:44] Taylor: that. I have not had it. But if it's anything like, so my wife and I,

[00:49:48] Chuck: Cincinnati, Chili is its own thing.

[00:49:50] Taylor: it, it really is, it, it's a very odd thing. The amount of shredded cheese they give you is borderline insanity. It's

[00:49:58] Chuck: attack. It's, and it becomes a [00:50:00]

[00:50:00] Robbie: of the chili.

[00:50:01] Chuck: it it becomes a cocoon

[00:50:03] Taylor: it, it, you, yeah, it's just a cocoon of carbs and fat. Um, The, the, the thing that really ma, I, I will tell you this. I started eating chili up there with just cheese. I added the oyster crackers. That changed the dynamic. So I do have to say it's not total utter trash, but I do have to say, if you're gonna, if you're, if you're doing Skyline, you gotta put the oyster crackers in.

[00:50:25] Chuck: and the hot sauce too, a little bit. Even

[00:50:28] Taylor: see, I didn't have hot sauce, I think, I think hot sauce. So basically what you're saying is like skyline alone's trash. You gotta have all the tremont

[00:50:33] Chuck: skyline is trash because I'm a gold star boy. But that's a whole other, again, another story we can talk about our family as. Yes, it is uh, less, less watery. It's more like saucy and then doesn't quite, it's a little less spice, so it's, I feel like it's more balanced.

[00:50:49] Taylor: I don't, I don't think there was any spice in the

[00:50:51] Chuck: Yeah. Well,

[00:50:52] Robbie: You don't mean

[00:50:52] Chuck: uh, may,

[00:50:53] Robbie: right? You mean like

[00:50:55] Taylor: You mean just, like tangy?

[00:50:57] Chuck: yeah, it was a little, they tend to like [00:51:00] make it too watery and then try to punch the spice and I want a sauce, I want a chili sauce, is essentially what it is.

[00:51:04] Taylor: that makes sense. That makes sense. But I, yeah, I was not impressed. We got it late. We, we were at Vaco Cincinnati's Christmas party and then we went there a little. A little inebriated and had it back at our hotel. And I was like,

[00:51:15] Chuck: eh, you well, yeah. Or at least you know, what better that than White Castle, I'm just saying.

[00:51:21] Taylor: I had White Castle one time. I think my body almost literally blew up.

[00:51:24] Chuck: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm, I'm

[00:51:26] Taylor: it, like it didn't know what to do. And it just kind of like expanded and

[00:51:30] Robbie: Yeah. This is not digestible.

[00:51:31] Chuck: Yeah. I'm. No, I'm certain most of my digestive issues are associated to the amount of white castles that I had at two in the morning post, like Milwaukee's Best or Miller High Life or something.

[00:51:43] Robbie: Couple forties.

[00:51:45] Chuck: No, I didn't try to do forties. Come on. Keg stands.

[00:51:48] Taylor: I do have to say Cincinnati shout out Cincinnati, some of the best coffee and baked goods. Like I'm a big coffee guy. Great coffee shops up there. And then some of like, is it baked bear or [00:52:00] no, that's,

[00:52:00] Chuck: Buscan is the big bakery.

[00:52:02] Taylor: The food's great. The culture, I mean, literally like, I'm gonna tell you this, like, I like Cincinnati better than Nashville. And I, and, and of course like I may live there and be like, this sucks. I'll go to Nashville. But like my wife and I talked about it, it's way more eclectic. It's way more cultural. Like Nashville's just honky tonks and white and like just subway, tile cuisine, you know, American southern cuisine, like Cincinnati. You get some like ger you heavy German and you got all the, o t r uh, was it on the r over the

[00:52:29] Chuck: Over the Rhine. I love, I love it though. I love the shoutout

[00:52:32] Taylor: it's just, it's, it's so good. And just the area's great. The people are great. The tech community's great up there. Shout out Michael Richardson, who runs Momentum Conference. I gotta give him a plug here. It's the Software Developer conference in Cincinnati. I spoke last year. There was like fi it was like a perfect amount, five or 600 people. The sessions were packed. It was, it was fantastic. So Michael, I would love to come back if you invite me.

[00:52:52] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:52:52] Chuck: Yeah, me too

[00:52:53] Robbie: I'll go. Yeah, I'll go.

[00:52:54] Chuck: me

[00:52:55] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:52:55] Taylor: yeah, there, it's, it's great. I would actually highly recommend it especially because it's, it's close to [00:53:00] home.

[00:53:01] Chuck: nice.

[00:53:01] Robbie: Cool. We are at time here. Are there things you wanna plug before we end?

[00:53:06] Taylor: I have a podcast Guidance Counselor 2.0. Again, the whole point of that podcast is to really help engineering leaders and job seekers level up both hiring and the job search. You can find me on all social media at t Desseyn, t d e s s e y N. I do the whole thing, the discords, the newsletters, the texting communities, yada, yada. So just find me on social and then follow the, links to the bottom of the funnel and join whatever you wanna join.

[00:53:28] Robbie: All right. Thanks everyone for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe. Leave us some ratings and reviews. We appreciate it, and we will catch you next time.