Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


106: Tech Topics, Traditional Jobs, and Grinding at Work with Jason Lengstorf

Show Notes

Work-life balance can feel like an impossible expectation to meet. For developers and other tech professionals, it’s even harder to unplug when your profession and personal life are connected to the web. Can developers resist the urge to overwork and embrace non-traditional ways of working? Jason Lengstorf, Host of Learn With Jason, believes "your job doesn't matter". He explores the concept of "grinding" and shares his ideas on the nuances of working long hours and the importance of maintaining a balanced approach. His perspective revolves around the idea that while putting in extra hours to learn and develop skills can be beneficial, overcommitting to work and neglecting other aspects of life can lead to a loss of creativity, identity, and overall well-being. In this episode, Jason talks to Robbie and Chuck about his opinion on popular Twitter tech topics, the effects of grinding in your career, and whether traditional jobs have become obsolete.

Key Takeaways

  • [01:01] - What’s new with Jason since the last episode?
  • [01:42] - A whiskey review: Bunnahabhain 18-Year Whisky.
  • [16:01] - Tech hot takes.
  • [19:17] - Jason talks about developers being attached to specific tools.
  • [22:58] - A whiskey review: Chicken Cock Whiskey Island Rooster Rum Barrel Rye.
  • [29:31] - How constant grinding is detrimental to your career.
  • [38:01] - Jason’s relationship with work.
  • [44:49] - Jason talks about his camera gear.


[20:14] - “I want to build cool shit for the internet and the tools are just tools.” ~ Jason Lengstorf

[30:00] - “I feel very strongly that the idea of being always on is detrimental.” ~ Jason Lengstorf

[40:27] - “The internet is an information vehicle and the information that we’re conveying most of the time is to convince you to put some dollars into somebody else's pocket.” ~ Jason Lengstorf


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[00:00:05] Robbie: What's going on everybody. This is another whiskey web and whatnot. Your favorite podcast about brick masons. No, it's not. It's whiskey web and whatnot.

[00:00:14] Chuck: Yeah, I'm

[00:00:15] Robbie: Uh, yeah, I'm RobbieTheWagner. This is Charles William Carpenter. The third. We are live at the Multnomah whiskey library.

[00:00:22] Chuck: Wow, I'm glad that you could say that.

[00:00:24] Robbie: Yeah. Did I say

[00:00:24] Chuck: Pronounce that. Yeah, I think you did. Multnomah. Multnomah. Multnomah.

[00:00:28] Jason: No, no, this is not the south. You say all the letters in this one.

[00:00:31] Chuck: Okay. Jesus.

[00:00:32] Jason: ha.

[00:00:33] Chuck: Anyway.

[00:00:34] Robbie: Yeah. With our guest today, uh, Jason Lengstorf. How's it going? Uh, the

[00:00:39] Chuck: Great. I've already gotten to insult you once.

[00:00:41] Robbie: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Keep him coming.

[00:00:43] Chuck: beginning of it. This perfect. Well, I guess we're friends now. Um, you are now a frequent guest of the podcast, so. Yeah. This is, uh, round two. Yeah.

[00:00:52] Robbie: Yeah. We'll keep him coming.

[00:00:54] Chuck: Well, uh, since the last time you were on, uh, do you do anything different? I

[00:00:58] Jason: I don't know. I

[00:01:00] Chuck: I don't, yeah.

[00:01:01] Jason intro

[00:01:01] Jason: Uh, I, yeah, the, I'm not sure where I was the last time I was on, but these days, uh, I am making developer content full time at Learn with Jason, and I'm a, a consultant for DevTools companies. Very

[00:01:16] Chuck: Very cool. I believe you upped your camera game since last time. That was probably it.

[00:01:20] Jason: since last time, that was probably... Oh my god. I, we shouldn't talk about that, my wife gets... Very

[00:01:24] Chuck: Oh my god, we shouldn't talk about that.

[00:01:25] Jason: bought a little camera robot. I love that little robit. Uh,

[00:01:30] Chuck: this. We are going to talk about that later.

[00:01:31] Jason: Yeah. Okay. All right. We'll talk about the robots.

[00:01:34] Robbie: Yeah, we start with the important things. Yes, so,

[00:01:37] Chuck: we're on WhiskeyWeb and whatnot, so let's take a look at this tequila. Um, no, it is a scotch today. Yeah. Bunna, bunna hobbin. Bunna hobbin? Bunna hobbin. Bunna hobbin. Bunna hobbin.

[00:01:51] Jason: Yeah, just keep

[00:01:53] Robbie: You got it.

[00:01:53] Jason: going to get better.

[00:01:55] Chuck: bunny hair. Uh, okay. It's a single moth squat.

[00:01:59] Jason: So within

[00:02:00] Chuck: Oh. Within

[00:02:01] Jason: the first, we've been recording for under two minutes and we have managed to offend the South and all of Scotland.

[00:02:08] Robbie: Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, we want everyone to feel included in the offense,

[00:02:11] Jason: mean, we got another 58 minutes, we can get

[00:02:13] Chuck: I will. Don't worry, I'll cover it. I'm really good at that. Uh, so this is an 18 year old Scotch from Isla? Isla? Islay? I'm gonna keep doing it. I'm sorry. Okay, 92. 6 proof. Uh, I think I did mention that it is 18 years old. Um, yeah, that's all there is to do. Just try it.

[00:02:35] Jason: I, I learned about this Scotch from, uh, Tanner at Front End Masters. Cause every time you go to Front End Masters after you do your recording, your workshop recording, Tanner has this locker full of really good scotch, and if you are into that, he just, he'll like, he asked me to describe myself as an animal. And then he picked this

[00:02:56] Robbie: full of scotch.

[00:02:56] Jason: out. Uh, and he was right.

[00:02:59] Robbie: Okay.

[00:03:00] Chuck: Interesting. Well, now I'm really... I mean, I love the

[00:03:03] Robbie: how that works. It's very

[00:03:05] Chuck: 18 years old, so I would expect it to be quite dark.

[00:03:08] Jason: Um,

[00:03:08] Robbie: Yeah. It smells like, like if you smell an ice wine, and it's like very

[00:03:13] Chuck: like,

[00:03:13] Jason: very like,

[00:03:14] Robbie: and like

[00:03:15] Jason: like,

[00:03:16] Robbie: condensed, I guess. Condensed isn't maybe the right word.

[00:03:18] Chuck: Uh, okay, I think we're going, Concentrated. Concentrated. I think we're going down a similar path, except for I don't know that I would say ice wine. Are you familiar with RC Cola? Royal, Royal Crown Cola. Yeah. It smells like flat RC Cola. Yeah, I loved RC.

[00:03:31] Robbie: do get some of that. Yeah. Now that you mention it.

[00:03:34] Chuck: I

[00:03:34] Robbie: that was on the bottle. Flat RC Cola. One of the

[00:03:36] Chuck: that's what they say. They're like, Bruno Habermann, like Royal Crown Cola. From Scotland. I'm from Scotland.

[00:03:44] Jason: I'm not with him. Oh my God.

[00:03:47] Chuck: Oh my God. Alright, I should taste this. You're

[00:03:50] Robbie: this.

[00:03:51] Chuck: having too much fun. All right. That's changed. That was a different accent.

[00:03:57] Robbie: You

[00:03:58] Chuck: you know, you'd think I had drank more of it. I haven't. Yeah. I just

[00:04:02] Robbie: It actually does taste kind of like flat cola,

[00:04:05] Jason: so I, what I love about this is, uh, so this is aged in a sherry cask, right? And so it picks up a lot of that sweetness. So it's got all of the, it's like big like a scotch and it's got that, you know, that, that kind of smoky, and also because of the sherry cask and because it's 18 years old, it just mellows out and you get this really, it's just, it's sweet.

[00:04:28] Chuck: just

[00:04:28] Jason: And like, for anybody who doesn't drink scotch, like, it's, it's not sweet.

[00:04:32] Robbie: mellows out and you

[00:04:33] Jason: does not.

[00:04:34] Chuck: it's scotchy

[00:04:36] Jason: scotch.

[00:04:37] Chuck: scotch. Scotchy scotch scotch that I've ever had, to be

[00:04:39] Robbie: say this is the least scotchy scotch. Scotchy scotch scotch that I've ever

[00:04:42] Jason: And I think this is the, like, honestly, I think this is, scotch is one of those, those rare products where, like, the price tag matters. Like, I think there's a point of diminishing returns on scotch, but I have definitely noticed that if I, if I buy a bottle of scotch, And it's cheap. I understand why people don't like scotch. You know? Well,

[00:05:01] Robbie: Yeah. Well, they go over the top, too, of like, extra peat or way too much smoke, and some people like that, but I don't like that as

[00:05:09] Chuck: as much to, to me scotch is like, that are like,

[00:05:12] Robbie: take it

[00:05:12] Chuck: how you will. People who really like hoppy IPAs. And the more hop that punches you in the face, they, that's, that's what they're chasing. And a lot, I, some, not a lot, because there's so many scotches. But there are scotches that really do kind of follow that for me. There's, there's so much peat there that you're just like chasing the, you know, the peat monster or whatever.

[00:05:31] Robbie: whatever.

[00:05:32] Jason: I think there's, there's definitely a tendency, uh, especially amongst like, I don't know, I feel like this is an American phenomenon to, to decide that if something is good, then more of that thing is better and the most of that thing is best and we, we stop worrying about whether or not it tastes good and we start chasing like a content, like I feel like there was a point in time where, uh, every microbrewery was going for like, is it IBUs or the, the hops content? Right. And it was like a contest to get the highest IBUs and it had just reached a point of absurdity. Um, I don't know. I now I can't I don't I don't really drink beer so I should stop talking about it But but I stopped drinking beer largely because of that like I felt like most of the beers that I could get Were like what if we took a beer and then pushed it way past the point of being a beer to either being Like, we put 18 pounds of chocolate in this, or we put more hops than anything else into this beer. There's more hops than water in this beer. You actually have to chew it.

[00:06:31] Chuck: at that point, it kind of doesn't cease to be a beer, you know, it's like, what is the thing?

[00:06:34] Jason: I know, like, you're just, you're having a light salad.

[00:06:40] Chuck: Yeah. You get all of your, your Carbs and vitamins and whatever else. You put some ranch dressing on it. Yeah, there you go. Um,

[00:06:48] Robbie: good for the colon.

[00:06:48] Chuck: All right, I'm gonna regress back to this thing because, um, Still feel the cola on it. Uh, I'm getting like residuals of like a cigar almost. Like a lot, like cigar leaves or like when I would smell a fresh cigar, I'm Mm hmm.

[00:07:03] Jason: Yeah, I feel like it's got the, it's got all the things that I like. I'm just gonna take another sip.

[00:07:07] Chuck: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. I

[00:07:10] Robbie: Yeah, I need to find some obscure descriptor here.

[00:07:13] Chuck: Yeah, you're lagging behind a little bit on that. In the, while he figures out words, I think it is a very American thing to like, this is good, more must be better. And I think that's how we end up with a bunch of, like, six foot lifted trucks that never go off road, and, you know, crazy stuff like that. And I'm sorry if you have one, but, uh...

[00:07:33] Jason: no, no. I think that it, like, you're right. Like I think we, we just, we like, we like the pursuit of more Yeah. Yeah. Um, one-upping arbitrarily. And it's something that I've noticed infectious across like,

[00:07:46] Chuck: everything. You know, I,

[00:07:47] Jason: I do this, my, my pursuit of more is cameras. I'm always thinking about like, how can I get a better shot? I do not need a better shot. Like my iPhone gets a great shot these days. Right? And so why am I worrying about? frame rates or pixel density or any of these things. Like I can't upload any more pixels to YouTube and the vast majority of people will literally never notice the difference between an HD iPhone shot and a, an HD shot on a red camera after it hits YouTube's compression algorithm. So like who, why, what am I doing? I don't know. I just decided I like it and I'm going to keep going. Right. And I think that we just, we, we find a thing that we want to make our thing and we just go,

[00:08:28] Chuck: You become the connoisseur of that thing, and

[00:08:30] Jason: Yeah.

[00:08:31] Chuck: know,

[00:08:31] Jason: and then it's a pursuit for the sake of the pursuit. Not really, it, it, it supersedes the goal.

[00:08:36] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, that seems like a very American hobby, but I encourage you to keep on going because it's not a lifted truck It's cool cameras, and then I'll all know more about it

[00:08:45] Robbie: uh, yeah.

[00:08:46] Chuck: Subject you know that

[00:08:47] Robbie: Yeah. You learn so that others can learn. Exactly. Yeah. . Yeah.

[00:08:50] Chuck: I love this so I added a little bit of water, and I'm gonna see how this opens up and dear listener By water I mean distilled water through a dropper one two three Yeah,

[00:09:03] Robbie: No, he took it into the bathroom. Put it under the faucet.

[00:09:05] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, just, and then dropped some crushed ice in there. Yep. And take that,

[00:09:12] Jason: uh,

[00:09:12] Chuck: Vanahanaween. Uh, Onomatopoeia. Eighteen year Onomatopoeia. Uh, so, Jason, you are familiar with, with the, uh, the rating scale, but I'll go ahead and explain for a dear listener, just in case this is your first episode. Uh, so we have a highly complex... scale of one to eight tentacles. Um, that's because an octopus has eight of them and it just sounds good. Yes. Uh, in case you didn't know, uh, not a Cthulhu. They have a lot

[00:09:36] Robbie: Yeah. And a lot of other body

[00:09:38] Chuck: parts. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, one being terrible, eight being amazing. , you can certainly categorize it as we do. , since you are also a whiskey aficionado and have experienced many. , so yeah, take it away, Jason.

[00:09:51] Jason: I think this is, I mean, I, I picked this obviously, so I'm, I'm kind of, uh, this is, this is very much stacked in my favor. But I think this is, this is one of my favorites. Um, so I think in the, the grand total of, of whiskeys that I've had, I would probably put this one at a seven.

[00:10:05] Chuck: would probably put this one

[00:10:06] Robbie: Can you tell us the animal you described yourself as that that relates to this

[00:10:11] Chuck: That relates to this?

[00:10:12] Jason: Uh, as a bear, but I, I need to caveat this because...

[00:10:15] Chuck: The animal, definitely, right?

[00:10:17] Jason: Right. And so I did not know about the other categorizations of bear. And so I used to, when I gave conference talks, I would describe myself as a web developer and friendly bear, and it was one of the most like mortifying. because I was, I was at this conference and I gave a talk and, and somebody who was at the conference came up after me and was like, Hey, you're a friendly bear. Would you like to come to a party that is after the conference? And I realized I put it together in my head, what I was signaling. And this person was so nervous and like, he was really like, he, he was taking a risk inviting me to this. He thought I, you know, he thought that's what I was describing myself as. And so we were both just like cringing inside out when we realized the misunderstanding. So I don't describe myself like that anymore because I feel like that is a,

[00:11:05] Robbie: is a just a

[00:11:06] Jason: great way to make everybody feel real weird. Um, But anyways, the point at which I described myself as a bear was when I, uh, it was during this point before I realized that I could be misleading people with my words. Yeah,

[00:11:22] Robbie: that I could be misleading

[00:11:23] Chuck: And, and to your defense, I can see when you think about Bear the Animal, being like this, and in, in particular to this particular whiskey, about being like kind of robust, but, but, uh, approachable, palatable, like...

[00:11:36] Robbie: like.

[00:11:37] Chuck: So there's a lot of depth here, but it's like not overpowering.

[00:11:41] Jason: And, and what I, the, the reason that I would go with the, the friendly bear, the animal descriptor for myself is, is that I have what, uh, has been described to me as resting murder face. Hmm. . And so when I, when I'm sitting deep in thought, I look like I want to. Like, take a swing at somebody, and, and one of the things that I've noticed is whenever I go to a conference, if I see the photos from the conference where I'm listening to somebody, my listening face is communicating I'm about to climb across this table. so I always look very, like, And I am the least angry person in the world. And, and I think that, uh, so, so one of the things that I've noticed about bears is that bears are very intimidating animals. Like they're, they're big, they've got huge claws, big teeth, and most of the imagery we see of them is like, you know, they're, they're reared up, claws out, all that kind of stuff. But when you actually watch.

[00:12:34] Chuck: a boar

[00:12:35] Jason: Most of the time they're doofy.

[00:12:38] Robbie: Oh, yeah.

[00:12:39] Chuck: doofy.

[00:12:39] Jason: They're rolling around on the ground. They're, they're having a good time. They're very like not aggressive animals. Um, and I feel like that's a good, uh, a good like parallel to me.

[00:12:50] Chuck: I think that's been our experience with you thus far, so that's why you're here again. That and the whiskey. Um, alright, so what do you think of this? Mr. Robbie, who doesn't like scotch.

[00:13:02] Robbie: yeah, so this isn't super scotchy, so it is pretty good. like I said, I think the Muckity Muck was better. I forget what we rated that, but I think it was maybe a 7. This is a little bit less. I'm going to say like a 6.

[00:13:13] Chuck: Okay,

[00:13:13] Jason: Would you, you would drink it again though? Yeah. Would you, would you put this on your own bar? Yeah.

[00:13:17] Robbie: Yeah, yeah, I think so.

[00:13:19] Chuck: And provide that for, for folks who do like scotch,

[00:13:21] Jason: I'm doing a very self satisfied

[00:13:23] Chuck: Yeah, you are, you're feeling, you're feeling yourself, you know. You might as well just give yourself a little...

[00:13:28] Jason: Cause he was like, I don't like scotch. And I was like.

[00:13:31] Chuck: Alright, I accept that challenge. Yeah, you like something here. Uh, yeah, and I just put a couple of drops into mine, and I gotta say it opened up even more. And again, it's still like, soft, but more flavors there. I'm trying to

[00:13:44] Jason: It takes that heat out. Like it's, it's got this very like right on the nose, this very like aggressive heat. that it, it, when you put the dropper in, it makes a huge difference in the, in the whiskey.

[00:13:54] Chuck: I agree with that. And, uh, and I do recall us, yeah, and I do recall us, uh, rating the Muckity Muck quite well. And I think a lot of it was because it was tasty, it was a scotch that didn't really... Tastes like the traditional scotches that we had been familiar with. I mean, it's a big world out there and probably haven't tried anywhere near enough. Usually my, like, go to scotch would be a Macallan. You know, it's very approachable. Um, but I don't think it has the diversity in flavor that this does, so...

[00:14:22] Jason: that this does, so. had Taylor on the show? Not yet,

[00:14:25] Chuck: yet, in

[00:14:26] Jason: Oh, you need

[00:14:26] Robbie: She's scheduled extremely far out, so we're waiting.

[00:14:29] Chuck: yeah, yeah. But we got there, we shipped her whiskey, so she's on, on

[00:14:32] Jason: she, she had a whole thing on McAllen. That was big. I think her, her direct quote was like, I don't need, I don't need to see McAllen again.

[00:14:39] Robbie: quote was like I'm at the point in my life where I can just say no to Macallan. Yeah.

[00:14:43] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. My father in law was a surgeon. And so he always had a lot of that on hand. And then when you do a family things, it was sort of like, that's the whiskey they have. And I got to try a lot of interesting ones. So again, it, for me, it felt like, Oh, well, you know, I can have this and enjoy this and I'm fine with that. I don't go buy it myself. But, uh, This stuff I would definitely have, would have again, for sure. And I feel like, I don't know what I gave the Muckity Muck, , but this would definitely be a contender for an 8 for me. So I think that like, I think I'd have to try that, try the Muckity Muck again and then try and see which one kind of tops it

[00:15:19] Robbie: side by side. Yeah,

[00:15:20] Chuck: this is up

[00:15:21] Jason: this muckety muck.

[00:15:22] Chuck: I'm right. Yeah.

[00:15:23] Robbie: good. It's, uh, orphan Barrel. I don't know if you're familiar with them,

[00:15:26] Chuck: So they find some interesting stuff and I feel like that was like a 23 year old or something. It

[00:15:30] Robbie: It was from some like, uh, distillery that had been open since like the 18 hundreds or something. And they like, are not open anymore, so they like, it's like all their barrels they had left. Yeah. So it's like you can't buy it after a while, but Yeah. Right. But they have it right now.

[00:15:43] Chuck: you better keep it. Uh, and the price reflects that. So I don't know what this cost per, per bottle, but I think it's pretty tasty. And I would definitely come back to it. So yay. Good job. Yeah. All right. So we, we still want to give you some hot takes, but we need to,

[00:15:58] Robbie: can't remember if we did hot takes

[00:15:59] Chuck: time. Well, we did. No, we did. We just didn't get very far. Cause we ended up talking about tailwind a lot.

[00:16:03] Jason: why.

[00:16:05] Robbie: I don't think we explicitly did hot takes. So you talked a lot about tailwind.

[00:16:08] Chuck: I talked about Tailwind? I have so few opinions about Tailwind.

[00:16:12] Robbie: I think we were just , the word tailwind shows up a lot in the

[00:16:15] Chuck: Yes, that's all I can say. So, maybe the computer did other things.

[00:16:21] Robbie: I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I don't remember. I don't really remember the context,

[00:16:24] Chuck: I know that we didn't get to a couple of them with you, so we'll go ahead and do the same thing.

[00:16:28] Robbie: get,

[00:16:29] Chuck: Get some of the, it won't be Tailwind, so don't worry about that. You have nothing to say about

[00:16:32] Robbie: Yeah, we took Tamin off

[00:16:33] Chuck: the list.

[00:16:33] Jason: Alright, inferred types in

[00:16:34] Chuck: Alright, inferred types in TypeScript or explicit types?

[00:16:38] Jason: don't know. Okay.

[00:16:40] Chuck: Okay.

[00:16:41] Robbie: I don't know enough

[00:16:41] Jason: I don't know enough TypeScript to be able to make that distinction. Like, I use TypeScript but only until I get autocomplete and then I stop doing TypeScript.

[00:16:50] Chuck: TypeScript. So

[00:16:51] Jason: So probably inferred types. Yeah. Using that logic.

[00:16:54] Robbie: a

[00:16:54] Chuck: There you go. The least work possible. Right? Yeah,

[00:16:56] Robbie: makes sense. yeah, I can't remember. Did we ask you to get rebase or get merge before? Do you remember? I

[00:17:01] Chuck: looked

[00:17:01] Robbie: looked at the transcript. Alright, well then yeah. Get rebase or get merge?

[00:17:03] Jason: I, I rebase, but really I use whatever the default in the repo is. Like, I, I don't care. I, I, here's what I've noticed. In my career, I have looked at the git history in total. Like, I've been doing this for 20 years. Five or six times. Like, it just doesn't matter.

[00:17:21] Chuck: Alright, fair enough. That is fair, yeah. Yeah, unless something goes catastrophically wrong and you're looking at who to blame for it. I feel like you don't really

[00:17:28] Jason: you're looking

[00:17:28] Chuck: look. Interactive rebases, can, I appreciate it, and interactive rebases or cherry picks or something. Like when you get in the... Knee deep into some stuff and it gets complicated and you d you don't blow the whole damn thing up then, then I like the rebase, but

[00:17:43] Jason: I, I love a rebase. And as soon as a rebase gets too complicated, I'll, I'll look at a merge. And if the merge won't work, then I force push main. I don't care. YOLO. YOLO.

[00:17:53] Chuck: Yolo. Yeah. All right. Fair enough.

[00:17:56] Robbie: I frequently will like copy the few files I actually want and just blow everything away, pull down latest and then just copy those back over.

[00:18:03] Chuck: right.

[00:18:03] Robbie: That's right.

[00:18:04] Jason: just copy those back over here.

[00:18:07] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:09] Chuck: what do you think about milk? Milk, milk, lemonade, around the corner, fudges, maybe?

[00:18:15] Robbie: What

[00:18:16] Jason: I, Jesus, I, like, I,

[00:18:18] Chuck: I

[00:18:19] Jason: I thought the milk thing on its own was weird. And then you went there. That was good. That was good. my contribution to the, the milk discourse was that I think we're all into it because 2% is roughly our test coverage.

[00:18:34] Robbie: Got

[00:18:35] Chuck: Got him. Nice, I like that. Well, you're up.

[00:18:39] Robbie: Oh, what's the next one? Good job. Or

[00:18:41] Chuck: Good job.

[00:18:43] Robbie: do we actually want to ask? Why did you put this

[00:18:45] Chuck: Because I want you

[00:18:46] Robbie: even aware? Okay. Did you know even that we were on FrontEnd Feud recently on JS Party? Are you surprised knowing that we are on, that we did not win? Yeah.

[00:19:02] Chuck: there we go. See, that's an

[00:19:03] Robbie: I don't think anyone is surprised. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:19:08] Chuck: There we go. Thank you for placating me. Uh, what is your least favorite programming language?

[00:19:14] Jason: I don't know all of them. None of them. I, like, here's, I, I realized about myself recently because, there've been a lot of, there's like these really heated debates about like TypeScript versus JavaScript or Rust versus WASM versus PHP versus, uh, React is becoming PHP. I just don't care. Like I, I've realized that what I care about is that I have a bunch of silly ideas in my head. And I would like for those ideas to be on the internet in a place that my friends can click on them and see the silly idea that I had. I used to do that in PHP back in the day, and that had good parts and bad parts. I do it today in, like, Node and JavaScript, and that's got good parts and bad parts. When I can, I write it in HTML and CSS, because that's far less complicated to keep running. It just kind of is what it is, right? And, and like, if tomorrow we're all writing in HTMX, I'm going to learn that and use that too. Like, I just don't, I just don't care. Like, I want to build cool shit for the internet. And, and the tools are just tools, right? Like, they'll continue to be valid until they're not. And then we'll have a different set of tools that let me have my silly ideas. And, and I think, I've had stronger and stronger. Lack of opinion about building an identity around like what Use like it. I don't know. it'd just super weird. If you like walked into a home renovation project and the guy was like, I'm a hammer guy. It's like, well, okay, but we need to, we need to screw this in like, nah, we're going to hammer that screw in. It's like, well, well, but

[00:20:41] Chuck: It's the best

[00:20:42] Jason: I guess.

[00:20:45] Chuck: yeah, I, I, I love that analogy. I'll probably steal that at some

[00:20:49] Jason: I mean, for real, like this is, this is how a lot of people are approaching programming right now.

[00:20:53] Chuck: is like,

[00:20:53] Jason: it's the equivalent of saying like, no, I'm a hammer guy. I'm going to hammer that screw in and it's like, okay, but it's,

[00:20:58] Robbie: It's a

[00:20:58] Chuck: the way.

[00:20:58] Jason: it's a screw. You need like, they're like, no, no, no. So here's what you do. You just cover the screw in putty and then you hammer it in and then the putty glues it to the wood. So it doesn't fall out. And

[00:21:08] Chuck: is totally fine.

[00:21:10] Robbie: wood so

[00:21:10] Chuck: I'm not living in that house,

[00:21:12] Jason: mean, you're technically not wrong, but ,

[00:21:14] Robbie: there

[00:21:15] Jason: there are easier ways. They're like, no, not for a hammer guy.

[00:21:17] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:21:21] Robbie: What, what, what? Yeah, I think that's the best way I've heard that put.

[00:21:23] Chuck: I know, so I think you nailed it. Yeah. Nailed it.

[00:21:26] Robbie: it.

[00:21:27] Chuck: But

[00:21:27] Jason: Sounded,

[00:21:29] Chuck: really, to go back on one of the things you said there, which is exactly that, people have associated their identities to these programming languages and technologies, and I mean, you can have pride in your work, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but also... At the end of the day, the output is what matters, and how you got there isn't as important as long as the output is successful. Yeah, I mean, I've been, I've been cracking

[00:21:54] Jason: as the output is successful. Yeah,

[00:21:56] Chuck: which, Oh, love.

[00:21:57] Jason: I 1990 might be too young to remember. But, uh, Mitch Hedberg had this joke that I love. He's like, you know, I'm a comedian. And so my job is to, is to write down. Things that I think are funny, or if the pen is too far away, I have to convince myself that the thing I thought wasn't that funny. And that's one of my favorite jokes because it applies to so many things. And I think that as web developers, our job is to make good experiences that are performant and easy to maintain and fun to use. Right? Or, if all that's too hard, we gotta convince our team to rebuild in the latest framework. Yeah.

[00:22:30] Robbie: to

[00:22:31] Jason: That joke was funnier in my head,

[00:22:32] Robbie: Yeah, no. no,

[00:22:33] Chuck: no, that works.

[00:22:35] Robbie: I, uh,

[00:22:35] Chuck: I love Mitch Hedberg. It has nothing to do with technologies, but one of my favorite jokes is, and again it kind of comes back to the simplicity of it all, which is, I got to get some business cards, because I want to win a free lunch.

[00:22:47] Robbie: ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Ahem.

[00:22:50] Jason: cards. Because I

[00:22:51] Robbie: So for the first time, since the episode where Chuck had the maple flavored whiskey and declared he was gonna go get another one, we have a second whiskey in the same episode.

[00:23:02] Chuck: episode. Yeah, how about that? Okay, so let me tell you a little about this one, folks. we're bringing back a favorite.

[00:23:07] Robbie: Mm-hmm. , what's the name of that favorite Chuck

[00:23:09] Chuck: Chicken Cock. Uh, this one doesn't have the same kind of ornate bottle, but it's still a nice one. This is the Island Rooster Rye, and it is a rum barrel finished rye. 95%

[00:23:21] Jason: uh,

[00:23:22] Chuck: 95 proof. Sorry. Uh, 47. 5% Yes. I would say it's 95. It's uh, why does this say ever clear? I think I'm overpaying. Uh, yeah. So this is a small batch says 20, 25 barrel batch, from Kentucky to the

[00:23:37] Robbie: Is that, how many barrels do you usually have from a batch

[00:23:41] Chuck: To per batch? Yeah, yeah. A normal batch would be like way more. So this would be a small batch. They're just saying small batch, but being very specific about it this time. So let's

[00:23:49] Robbie: Not, not 26 barrels.

[00:23:53] Chuck: What happens to the 24th barrel? You know, something of that nature. I can't do this. I was just about to pour my own stuff again. You're like, uh, oh shit, what's happening

[00:24:01] Jason: Alright, we're about to get bounced out of the Multnomah Whiskey Library.

[00:24:05] Chuck: Listen, I don't live

[00:24:05] Robbie: They've been very accommodating. Yeah. Yeah. It smells a lot like a Hawaiian pizza to me. Like, not just pineapple, but like some meatiness. Yeah,

[00:24:16] Chuck: wasn't getting that at all. I get a little lime, actually. Some lime and maybe like, just leafiness. Like, You know those, like, lime leaves? The kefir leaves or whatever they call them?

[00:24:26] Robbie: Maybe some lemongrass? Yeah, maybe lemongrass,

[00:24:28] Chuck: lemongrass, actually. Maybe that's where

[00:24:30] Jason: y'all are just saying words.

[00:24:32] Robbie: words. Yeah. I'm

[00:24:32] Chuck: always just say words. I know we don't know each other that well, but you, you know, you've figured that out at least.

[00:24:38] Robbie: You can pick any word and suggest it, and we'll probably smell and taste it.

[00:24:43] Chuck: That is not what I

[00:24:45] Robbie: Oh, that tastes much different than the smell. I

[00:24:47] Chuck: like

[00:24:47] Jason: we kind of blew our palates out with the scotch, and now we're back to a rye. And I'm like, that kind of tastes like juice.

[00:24:53] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:24:53] Chuck: Right, yeah, it's the brown juice.

[00:24:55] Robbie: Yeah. Um,

[00:24:57] Jason: Maybe we should have done that in the other

[00:24:58] Chuck: direction. Right,

[00:24:59] Robbie: a r It's not, it's not very spicy. No. Like

[00:25:02] Jason: very spicy. Like, it's got good heat on it, but that boonhobbin had the same heat on it.

[00:25:07] Robbie: Mm-hmm.

[00:25:07] Jason: So this, this is like, the same general nose, and the same, like, heat, without the smokiness to kind of back it up, so it feels like a lighter weight.

[00:25:20] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:25:20] Jason: Uh, and I don't think that's actually the case, I think we just, I think we just kind of went at this backwards.

[00:25:25] Chuck: Right. I'm getting a

[00:25:26] Robbie: just

[00:25:27] Chuck: right way lemon juice initially. I'm getting like some, I'm trying to think of like, it's almost like taste the way bamboo smells. I don't

[00:25:36] Robbie: it's kind of

[00:25:37] Chuck: candly.

[00:25:38] Robbie: candly

[00:25:38] Jason: a lot more botanical out of this than

[00:25:40] Chuck: am. I am getting so much of that. Like, things are leading that way heavy for me. And then, like, maybe a light pepper finish. But no, like, normal,

[00:25:46] Robbie: Yeah, it's like very... It's planty of some kind. Some kind of plant. Yes. Like, very fresh and leafy.

[00:25:53] Chuck: I don't know the rum part of this and how long things were a part of it, but I don't get any of that sweetness.

[00:25:59] Jason: that's all I'm getting. All I'm getting off this is the, is like the sugar barrel, like the rum.

[00:26:04] Chuck: interesting. Maybe you're better at this than I am. I don't

[00:26:07] Jason: might just be that like my, my palate is more blown out

[00:26:10] Chuck: looking for a replacement host, I mean, if you're interested.

[00:26:12] Jason: toast.

[00:26:13] Robbie: which one of us?

[00:26:13] Chuck: It's hard to say. Up to him, I guess. Who do you want to talk to every week, you know? Who do you want to talk to? Hint me.

[00:26:21] Jason: well, you know, all I do is the intro really, so you can just record that.

[00:26:27] Chuck: We'll still cut you in on the residuals, it's totally fine. okay, so, uh, come back to the scale though. We should rate this still. And guest, please go first.

[00:26:35] Jason: I feel like I'm not going to be able to give a fair rating here, but I would put this at like a five.

[00:26:39] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:26:40] Jason: Like, it's good. But I like that Boon Hoppin better.

[00:26:43] Chuck: Yeah, well, I'm definitely not going to compare the two by any means. I'm going to put this in, in, in the range of just ryes. We kind of have like our North Star is the, Sagamore rye. I just like it. It's a good price point. It's like

[00:26:58] Robbie: Hopefully they're going to sponsor

[00:26:59] Chuck: diverse. Yeah. And that too. brought to you by Sagamore rye. but this is interesting. It's not bad. I probably am a five, four and a half to five myself as well, because it's just interesting. But I don't know how often I want to come back and have this. And that's a shame because I like saying chicken cock. I'll have the chicken cock rye. I'll have, yeah, yeah. Uh, I'll have a double of the cock.

[00:27:19] Robbie: The extra large cock. He said

[00:27:21] Jason: said

[00:27:22] Chuck: said it. I didn't go there.

[00:27:24] Robbie: Oh, um, yeah, I'm, I'm similarly displeased because I do love them as a brand But, like, compared to other Ryes, which I love a lot of Ryes, this, it doesn't do it for me. So, yeah, I mean, this might be a three for me.

[00:27:39] Jason: three for me. But, like, it's

[00:27:40] Robbie: not, it doesn't have any spice that I'm detecting.

[00:27:43] Chuck: And

[00:27:43] Robbie: I need that from a Rye. That's the reason I drink it. like, I agree that it has some interesting things that you could, like, It's interesting for a couple of sips. But it's interesting in the way that, like, that, uh, What was it? The Boss Hog Magellan or

[00:27:56] Chuck: whatever?

[00:27:57] Jason: it was like.

[00:27:58] Robbie: Like, it's not something that I would drink more than a few sips of. It's like, oh, that's a cool flavor for like a minute, but it's, I don't want to sip on it. So, this one's kind of in that category for

[00:28:05] Jason: When I think I, like, when I think of rye, the defining characteristic for me is that you start to feel it creep up into your sinus. And it's, like, it, it, and like, not in an unpleasant way, but you just sort of feel that, like, sinus clearing. It's sort of like, uh, having a, a menthol cough drop or something in the sense that it sort of like opens your head up. This doesn't have any of

[00:28:26] Chuck: No, it doesn't at all. This to me feels like the it's the rye equivalent of like a kind of fresh Thai meal Like, it has the flavors that I would get out of a Thai meal, like, uh, not the spice, obviously,

[00:28:39] Jason: we drinking the same drink?

[00:28:41] Robbie: I'm agreeing. I agree with you. Yeah.

[00:28:42] Chuck: See, I don't

[00:28:43] Robbie: know. Like, if you had some fried rice with some pineapple or something.

[00:28:46] Chuck: See, for me, I'm just thinking of, like, uh, I don't know, something that has, you know, lime and the, the, the leaves and all that, like, and, uh, and, and the lemongrass just makes me think of, like, Thai food. Yeah. Okay, I see, I see where you're coming from. I know it was like out of left field with that and you're like, this is what, this is not Pad Thai is not, uh, there's no curry in here whatsoever. So I get that too. Right? Like,

[00:29:09] Jason: Yeah,

[00:29:09] Robbie: that dropper go? I actually, I'm curious. Yeah, right here.

[00:29:11] Chuck: yeah, I think we're going to have to, to circle back around on it

[00:29:14] Jason: Alright, let's try this with a little water. Let's see what happens.

[00:29:18] Chuck: Maybe that's the

[00:29:19] Robbie: with a little water in and it's a eight.

[00:29:22] Jason: All

[00:29:22] Chuck: And then it becomes amazing.

[00:29:24] Jason's thoughts on grinding for your career

[00:29:24] Chuck: okay, so you have a post debating whether or not grinding is good for your career. What are your thoughts on that?

[00:29:31] Jason: so this is one of those questions that I feel like has to be answered in person because it's got so much nuance to it, right? Because. the idea of grinding has become a very polarizing thing where it's like, you know, you either are somebody who works all the time and never stops, or you're somebody who, a job's just a job, I don't care about this stuff. And I don't think that's actually what we're getting at. And so, I feel very strongly that the idea of, of being always on is detrimental. I, I think that it is extremely important to have space from your work. It's extremely important to do things that disengage you from the work because your subconscious does a lot of, connective work between ideas when you're not engaged with it. And I also think it's really important to have a broad base of interest and skills because that also allows for lateral thought and connections that don't make sense if you're super, super narrow in, in the way that you think.

[00:30:25] Chuck: you

[00:30:25] Jason: So in that sense, I, I don't like the grind set of like, Oh yeah, you know, 80 hours a week. Like we're going, we're going. I have personally built a lot of my career off of working weird and long hours. And so I do think that there is value and that there is. something to be said for this idea of investing in yourself by saying this is my focus and I'm interested and I want to learn putting in longer hours or extra hours or, you know, doing things that are fun and interesting to you, you can kind of make the job your hobby. And so, you know, if you do your, your day job, you're going to code and then on the weekend you want to play with an idea and it's code that is investing in your career and that is going to make you a stronger coder. It's going to help you learn new things. But there's a, there's a push and a pull to it. Where if you, if you put

[00:31:16] Robbie: you,

[00:31:16] Jason: everything into coding for long periods of time, you're one, gonna become less interesting. Because all you ever talk about is code, all you ever think about is code, and you just sort of lose the dimensionality that makes a person a person. Like, it's not fun to talk to somebody who will relate every single sentence back to what they're interested in, and it's always the same thing, right? Like, we've been in those conversations that are not fun to be in, like, you don't want to be that person. And also, I, I just have found that folks who get Two focused on this and, you know, one, make it their identity. Like it's, you're very one dimensional, but you also kind of lose your creativity. Like it's, it's how you become a hammer guy is you, you get so focused on this that you forget that there are approaches outside of the one you've chosen that you focus on for 90 hours a week. And so I think all of that to sum up is, is it is okay to put in extra hours when you're learning or when you're excited. It is also very important to give yourself space and, and walk outside of the career and make sure that you're giving yourself room to, to breathe and grow. and both are important. It's, two sides of the same coin. Like, without one, you, the other won't give you as much benefit. Right? You need them both together.

[00:32:27] Chuck: Yeah. I also

[00:32:29] Robbie: You're like, you have to be really honest about, are you enjoying what you're doing or not? Because a lot of people grind just to grind. They're like, if everyone has to grind to like succeed and that's different than like, I'm really excited about this technology and I want to spend extra hours or like My brain doesn't work on a 9 to 5 schedule, and I'm more productive in late hours, and I want to work longer, or whatever. Like, if you're still having fun, and like, it works with your brain and thinking style, then like, I think that can be okay, and a healthy thing to do.

[00:32:58] Jason: I, I feel like that, that conflates two things that I actually think are really important to disambiguate because on the one hand, I think one of the, I've tweeted this before and it was very contentious and so this is probably the closest thing to a hot take that

[00:33:10] Chuck: and you brought it.

[00:33:11] Jason: uh, is that the most damage that's been done in our industry is that a lot of people code as a hobby and therefore treat their jobs as a hobby and don't think about the requirements of the job. They think about what's fun. And so they build fun stuff at the expense of the business, or at the expense of the user, or at the expense of their teams. So, fun is very, very important. I am a huge proponent of it. I believe in fun, it's a core driver for me.

[00:33:40] Robbie: And

[00:33:41] Jason: also, if you are working in a business, the fun has to be in support of the goals of that business, right? Because if you ruin the business so that you can play, You won't have a job to play at

[00:33:54] Robbie: anyway.

[00:33:55] Jason: right? Like it, it has to be in the right order. So to that point of like the longer hours being because you're enjoying yourself, I, I don't actually know that I agree with that. I don't think that they have to be fun. I think that you can choose that like, like I wrote this post forever ago called, What are you optimizing for? And my belief is that as you grow, you will have a thing that you want to accomplish and you decide it's the most important thing and that's where the most attention goes. And so that will shift throughout your life. Like you, when you're young, right? It's maybe it's school and then after school maybe it's career and then after a few years maybe it's family. And then you've got kids and so your focus is your kids. And then your kids move out and then you've got something else to focus on, right? Like it's gonna evolve several times throughout your life and you're gonna get a chance to reinvent yourself. But it's always based around what you're optimizing for. And even in your career, you, you're still doing optimizations. Like maybe early in my career, I was optimizing for, I want to get really good at running a web dev business, the consultancy. Then I realized that I didn't actually like running the business. I wanted to optimize instead for building cool things for the web. So I chose a different path and got to a place where I didn't have the responsibility except to build. And then I realized that it was more fun to like teach developers. So I started optimizing for teaching where like web development was the subject that I was teaching. Right? And at each one of those turns, I made a decision to dive deep into the thing that I was teaching, and most of the time it was because it was fun for me. Some of the time it was because I knew it was where I wanted to go next, and I suffered through it. Uh, and, and so I think that it is okay to grind if... You've chosen that thing and you're knowingly making the sacrifice. I am not going to have much of a social life for the next six months because I want to build this skillset that will allow me to have the income and job position that gives me the freedom to have that social life in six months. Without the time bound though, now you're just a workaholic and that's just the rest of your career, right? So I think it's, it's gotta be, it's gotta be a consciously made decision to, to choose something that you're not enjoying. But I do think that it can be beneficial if you know that you gotta get from point A to point B. You can say, alright, this is gonna be a bad year. But I'm gonna get from point A to point B and that unlocks these things that are fun later.

[00:36:07] Robbie: can say, all Right, this that

[00:36:07] Chuck: haven't,

[00:36:08] Jason: type 2 fun.

[00:36:09] Chuck: yeah, yeah, it's like, it's intent, essentially, and having self regulation around that, and making sacrifices and ebb and flowing in and out of it, so you don't burn out, or, ruin your life and social experiences, or don't have any of those things along the way. Yeah, I think it's like, I think essentially the answer to that about is grinding good or bad is like, well, it depends, right? What's the context?

[00:36:34] Robbie: bad, right?

[00:36:34] Jason: it depends, right? And for real though, I've, I've That answer gets funnier to me every single time because it just, it scales out like at first it's like, which should I use? You know, should I use reactor angular? And it's like, it depends. And it's like, should I focus on my career or my family? Well, it depends. Well, family, maybe, maybe just focus on your family,

[00:36:53] Chuck: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, don't completely ignore them. But I think even in that context, where you're like, to get my family somewhere better, I might be missing for a little bit. But I don't want to miss everything. But I'm going to be real, real busy. You're optimizing for a better place for your family in a year or less, and whatever that looks like. And the end goal... Looks better because you have to because you know, maybe you're the provider and that is like your role in that And of course, I want to see and be a part of every single thing. I may need to

[00:37:24] Jason: to sacrifice

[00:37:25] Chuck: 30% of those things for the end goal. But again, you know that like this isn't the You know the forward method of operation and all perpetuity I'm actually gonna like of course correct the other way down the line once we get there

[00:37:38] Jason: Right.

[00:37:38] Robbie: Yeah, I had some thoughts and then I zoned out for a second and, uh,

[00:37:42] Chuck: It turns out Robbie fell asleep. Sorry. Can you say all that again? No, I'm just kidding.

[00:37:45] Robbie: no. I'm, I'm from the East coast, so it's bedtime, but, uh,

[00:37:48] Chuck: Oh, then I, what, will I ask the next one? No, you

[00:37:51] Robbie: have to ask, um,

[00:37:52] Chuck: the next one. Wake up.

[00:37:55] Robbie: Yeah. So I feel like this is somewhat related, but you had another post that was like, your job doesn't matter. And that's great news.

[00:38:02] Jason: that's great news. Um,

[00:38:04] Do jobs matter?

[00:38:04] Robbie: um, you know, do jobs really not matter? Or

[00:38:07] Chuck: like...

[00:38:08] Robbie: They don't.

[00:38:08] Jason: They don't. They truly don't. Like, so, I've had a really complicated relationship with work my whole life, and when I was younger, I wanted to be a musician, I, like, couldn't hold down a job. I think I had. 20 jobs in one year because I was a touring musician. I'd come home and work for two weeks and then quit the job to go back out on tour. I, I thought for a while I would describe myself as unemployable. and my thinking behind that was like, Well, I, I don't do well if somebody's telling me what to do. I don't like being stuck doing the same thing for a long time and all that. And, that was, you know, that was a big thing. And then I, Started my own agency thinking I had to be the boss and then like I at some point during my career I actually hit this point where I had a contract that paid me enough that I didn't have to do any other work Right, it was and you know, it was it wasn't a lot it was like 120 grand a year or something like that, but at the time I was actually living out of a suitcase and My rent was like nothing. I was barely spending any money. So almost everything that I made was being saved and The job required like 10 hours a week

[00:39:08] Chuck: a week. Oh, wow.

[00:39:08] Jason: So I was on this, this absolute dream contract of like they were retaining me for time. It was an R and D thing. They didn't need me as much as they thought they would, but they were, it was a super cool company. So they were like, we got you for the contract. Like we're going to pay this contract out. And so I had a year of basically nothing to do. And the first thought was, this is great. I get to do whatever I want and I've got a paycheck and within three weeks. I had a full blown existential crisis. I was like, okay, I'm in my, I was in my 20s at the time. So I'm in my 20s.

[00:39:41] Chuck: I have

[00:39:42] Jason: I have all the money that I need. I have a job that is so easy that it only takes me a day or so a week. And I have unlimited free time. These are all the things that I said I was working toward, right? Like, so my career trajectory was get to this point. I'm not even 30 yet. What does the rest of this life mean? Like, do I just peddle here for 30 to 50 more years and then die? Like, that sounds terrible. I don't want to do that. So I just panicked. I was like, okay, so what's the meaning of any of this stuff? Why does any of this stuff matter? And, I ultimately realized that, like, We just, we don't do anything important. We work on the internet. The internet is, at the end of the day, an information vehicle. And the information that we're conveying, most of the time, is to convince you to put some dollars into somebody else's pocket.

[00:40:32] Chuck: Right.

[00:40:32] Jason: Right? So, that is existentially an unimportant pursuit. that means...

[00:40:39] Robbie: very

[00:40:40] Jason: into a very like Nietzsche style sense. Like none of this, none of this stuff matters. It's all meaningless. So the only meaning that is available to us is the meaning that we choose to assign to things. Because if we search for external meaning, there's always something to tell us that it's not real. You look for meaning in capitalism. Well, there's a million reasons why that's a bad idea. You look for meaning in your community. Well, there's lots of reasons not to have faith in that in country and faith and whatever it is, right? You, you choose a thing and you look into it and ultimately you find out that it's kind of hollow because it's just something that somebody else said was important despite a bunch of contradictions that mean that that's not actually a thing. So you then are left with yourself. And a bunch of meaningless stuff that other people are trying to convince you, you should care about, because it benefits them.

[00:41:26] Chuck: Yep. Right.

[00:41:26] Jason: So what do you do? Like, what choices do you make, right? And, and the only thing left to you then, is to decide, well what makes me happy? Like, what feels good to do? And not good in like the, the immediate, hedonistic, like, do whatever you want sense. But in the, like, what makes me want to get out of bed? Well, I want to, I want to make the people I care about... Have better lives. I want to create a space that looks more like the space I thought would exist, you know, more, more equitable, more inclusive. Like these are all things that I can affect a tiny bit. And so I can go out and do that. And while I'm doing that, I'm going to build some websites. And it's going to be fun. And people are going to pay me a lot of money for that. Because for whatever reason, we've decided this career is a career that gets a lot of dollars. Right?

[00:42:06] Chuck: high value,

[00:42:07] Robbie: going to

[00:42:07] Jason: And so I get to, I get to take these dollars and I'm going to build some websites. And I'm going to make some, some videos for companies. And all of them are going to make some more money. And then I can just reinvest that into the things that I care about. So, you know, I'm going to try to throw more barbecues for my friends and I'm going to try to make sure that the people who, whose careers I get involved with, walk out of it with like one half step more advantage than they had when they met me. And if those are the things that I do, then I, I feel like I can die happy because I did something that felt meaningful to me. I'm never going to look back on a website I built and think to myself, that was it. That was my legacy.

[00:42:41] Chuck: Yeah. And tell somebody unplugs the computer, you know, in

[00:42:45] Jason: Right? Like when the power goes out, what are we going to do? Like we're going to look at each other and say, how did I treat

[00:42:49] Chuck: You

[00:42:50] Jason: Right. And I think that's sort of, that's sort of what I mean by all that is like, none of this stuff is important in the existential sense. You're not going to be on your deathbed thinking back to that time that you got 10% better conversion rate on a landing page. Like it just, it doesn't

[00:43:03] Chuck: You, what you will do though, is you'll probably regret choosing Tailwind, you know. I don't,

[00:43:10] Robbie: I don't. I don't think so. You'll probably be very content that you chose Tailwind.

[00:43:14] Chuck: Robbie will die in his Tailwind t shirt, you know. The saddest thing that I can imagine

[00:43:18] Robbie: would be is Yeah. And Adam that probably wouldn't even, yeah.

[00:43:26] Chuck: Yes!

[00:43:28] Robbie: So

[00:43:28] Chuck: So, anyway.

[00:43:29] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah, hopefully my deathbed is not soon, and hopefully by then, Tailwind is not a thing. Like, you know, I'm, I mean no ill will to Tailwind, I love Tailwind, but like, there's no way there won't be other things that are hotter, and people use it before, like by then, so.

[00:43:44] Chuck: I mean... I'm,

[00:43:45] Jason: how Tailwind ends up in the transcript. 'cause I have not talked about it at all. Y'all just keep bringing it

[00:43:49] Chuck: up. Yeah. This is, I'm baiting you. That's

[00:43:51] Robbie: all. of it. I'm actually paid by the tailwind. Every time I say it, I

[00:43:54] Chuck: I get the tailwinds.

[00:43:55] Robbie: I get $5. Tailwind.

[00:43:56] Chuck: The tailwinds trademark. Hashtag hashtag the tailwind.

[00:44:00] Jason: I

[00:44:01] Chuck: I mean, you just dislike them because of like the sailing association, you know?

[00:44:05] Robbie: Uh, because I'm an avid sailor. Yeah.

[00:44:06] Chuck: Right? Mm-hmm. you would think

[00:44:08] Robbie: you,

[00:44:09] Chuck: ship shape tailwind

[00:44:12] Robbie: Oh

[00:44:12] Chuck: an

[00:44:12] Robbie: octopus. Hey, I've been on sailboats twice.

[00:44:16] Chuck: I have sailed probably more than

[00:44:17] Robbie: you. I have probably,

[00:44:18] Chuck: Been on sailboats and sailed.

[00:44:20] Robbie: Do you actually control all the ropes and stuff?

[00:44:23] Chuck: and stuff? I have done that. I mean, I just did what I was told. You know, go over there, pull

[00:44:26] Robbie: I can do what I'm

[00:44:27] Chuck: do that, you know, do

[00:44:28] Robbie: Like, I told me too of like, yeah, just wrap this around this. Yeah, yeah. I know those things.

[00:44:33] Chuck: things. Yeah, but I couldn't sail by

[00:44:35] Robbie: myself. Yeah, not me

[00:44:36] Chuck: either. That would be pretty bad. What about you? Do you, Jason, do you

[00:44:40] Robbie: are you a boater of any

[00:44:41] Chuck: You're close enough to the ocean.

[00:44:44] Robbie: No?

[00:44:45] Chuck: You look like a pirate,

[00:44:47] Robbie: Yeah, you look like you could

[00:44:48] Chuck: gone to pirates,

[00:44:49] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:44:49] Chuck: You could drive the ship in. I think we've moved to whatnot at a certain point.

[00:44:54] Jason: at a certain point.

[00:44:55] Robbie: at a certain point. I think we're firmly in whatnot.

[00:44:57] talking about robot cameras

[00:44:57] Chuck: Okay, perfect. So, let's talk about these, like, robot camera things.

[00:45:02] Jason: Mmm.

[00:45:03] Chuck: Because I saw a video on Twitter, I believe, where you were like, these eggs, and it literally, like... From what I saw, so I'm the layman or whatever, but it's like this little motorized robot thing and you can control it to kind of do some cool panning shots and stuff like that.

[00:45:18] Jason: Yeah, so, uh, in lieu of doing actual work, I, accumulate camera gear and the one of the latest pieces that I got is a little motorized dolly. And so, On its own, it's a modular system, right? So on its own, it goes left and right, or it can go in an arc, and you can, you can hook a camera on that, and you get these cool little rolling shots where it, it moves past you, or that it kind of spins around you as you go, and you can do really cool shots of, of really whatever, right? It sits on any flat surface, and that's what makes it so, so cool. but then it has an, an upgrade, like modular piece that one will do pan, and one will do tilt, so that you also get, as it's. sliding left and right or in the arc you can move it left and right and also up and down so you can do something like have it move around your computer and then look up and to the right to focus on the person typing on the computer you know these these sorts of like very cinematic shots that you would see in uh in a movie that are have absolutely no place in a video about computers but oh by god you're gonna see them

[00:46:22] Chuck: I think you could take these shots and do either a remake or a Hackers 2 or something like that. And make it a little sexier, because that's in the 90s.

[00:46:32] Jason: Quite seriously. I just today wrote a little script and the whole script is built around the idea of doing a cool camera shot. Yeah. Um, and it does involve hacking. So we'll, we'll see if I can pull this off right. Like it's, I I

[00:46:47] Robbie: Like, Right,

[00:46:50] Chuck: well that's half the battle, having the stuff, you know. I'm sure you can use it.

[00:46:54] Jason: I'm sure you can use.

[00:46:54] Robbie: use it. Using it well, I guess, is

[00:46:57] Chuck: would critics say...

[00:46:58] Jason: they, as GI Joe would say, knowing is half the battle, but what they don't tell you is that the second half is way harder.

[00:47:04] Chuck: Yeah, exactly.

[00:47:05] Robbie: is that the second half is

[00:47:06] Chuck: like, I know it, I can't apply it, holy shit. And I used to, I, I thought I was such a smart kid where I figured that, or I thought I figured it out as a kid. Cause I, you know, in the 80's I was watching G. I. Joe. And, uh, and I was like, I know what the other half is. You, you know, and then you do it. Really thought I was like going somewhere in

[00:47:27] Jason: one of my absolute favorite cases of that is, uh, my, my wife watches the show alone.

[00:47:35] Chuck: Right?

[00:47:35] Jason: so alone for anybody who hasn't seen it is the premise of this show is they take a group of people and then each of them individually is kind of dropped into some wilderness area. Sometimes it's like far north tundra, sometimes it's, you know, like a heavily wooded space or whatever. And the goal is you have to stay there. For as long as you can and so it involves like you got to make Nets to catch fish you got a hunt you got to make traps so that you can catch rabbits and stuff You got to build a shelter. You got to do like wilderness first aid and all these sorts of things, right? And it's a very serious show like they it is these people are extremely skilled and the stuff they're doing is extremely hardcore and my wife is She is interested in being outdoors like she hikes all the time She's very big on like let's go out into the woods and and whatever. She's not a camper, right? like she doesn't she doesn't do like Wilderness survival stuff or anything, but oh my god when she watches this show you would think that she had been living in the woods for for

[00:48:34] Robbie: she had been

[00:48:35] Jason: because she like She's watching show one of the one of these episodes one of the guys like trips over a log Lands on his ax. 'cause for whatever reason, he was holding his ax out and he cuts his arm right and he can't get it to stop bleeding. So he taps out of the show and she's livid. She's like, you've never feel dressed a wound before. You don't know how to stitch up your own arm. You don't deserve to be on the show. I was

[00:48:58] Chuck: Oh my gosh.

[00:48:59] Jason: is tech Twitter. This is tech Twitter right here. We've

[00:49:03] Chuck: found it. You're passionate about it. Well, I wanna, I wanna ask, They might be, yeah.

[00:49:07] Jason: wives

[00:49:07] Robbie: friends?

[00:49:08] Jason: They might be,

[00:49:09] Chuck: They might be, because my wife is very much into that. And she does a similar thing. Oh, it's beautiful. Let's go hiking. Like, whatever. And then she's like, cool. Let's go back to a really nice cabin. Or maybe a hotel in town. And, you know, yeah.

[00:49:22] Robbie: think my,

[00:49:23] Jason: So Marissa would, would camp. She would 100% camp. I won't

[00:49:27] Chuck: camp.

[00:49:28] Jason: I grew up in Montana. My dad used to make me go camping and I've decided that the closest I'm going to get to camping is a hotel room. I get mad now in a hotel room cause I'm like, my pillow's not right. know what I'm like? I'm not going to sleep on the ground. Are you kidding me?

[00:49:42] Chuck: I've done that with my son, I like take him camping a couple of different times, but for the most part, I'm not interested in taking time off to go work to do the normal shit that I can just have for free in my house or a hotel house, much

[00:49:55] Robbie: and having bathrooms is important.

[00:49:57] Jason: I thought about this and and ultimately I think that The human race has spent tens of thousands of years building toward the point where we have indoor plumbing and air conditioning and Ready of readily available food and comfortable beds and for us to go out into the woods and camp for sport is just spitting in our

[00:50:16] Robbie: ancestors

[00:50:17] Jason: faces

[00:50:18] Robbie: Why are we seeking discomfort?

[00:50:19] Chuck: sport is just spitting in our ancestors. Exactly. Why are we seeking discomfort? Yeah. I mean unless it's the, I, there's just like a very small Less than a handful of reasons why I would desire to do that. And that would be like, oh, you're gonna, uh, hike for two, three days and go to Havasupai Falls and see these, like, places in the world you have zero chance to ever see any other way. I mean, if I can helicopter in and out, I would opt for that, I guess. But, like, that's just something I would consider. Can't say I have done it or will actually do it. Go through with it, but I thought like maybe I would then but otherwise it just makes me mad I had even as a kid like in high school and stuff I had friends that would go camping and stuff and it's like why do I need to go and work out in the woods just to Get drunk around the fire. Can we do this in my backyard? Like who gives a shit and then I'll go sleep in my own

[00:51:02] Robbie: bed It's like the whole, like, one upping thing. Of like, people do it, I feel like, because they want to show they can do it. And like, it feels cooler to be like, I did this thing, and it was hard work. And then we drank by the fire, instead of just drinking

[00:51:16] Chuck: And I think also another facet of it, and you might be able to appreciate this, Jason, is gear accumulation. Mm-hmm. is that you can go down a rabbit hole of like fancy light gear and that's all part of it too. And like, you know, it's try to make the woods like your house,

[00:51:31] Jason: like any of these hobbies, like all, all of my hobbies are just patently absurd, right? Mm-hmm. . And, and I think that for anybody who goes deep on a hobby, like it, it reaches a point of absurdity very, very quickly. I don't begrudge anybody camping. I don't want to go with you. Right? Like, like I think it's, I think it's super cool that people go out and do that stuff. And sometimes people will show me the like pop up tents that they got for their car or like the way they converted a van. I'm like, man, that's so cool. I would love to do that.

[00:51:58] Robbie: them.

[00:51:59] Jason: But I wouldn't sleep in it. Like, I would drive it to a hotel.

[00:52:02] Chuck: Yeah, exactly. You're like, I want to be comfortable while I'm in between hikes or something. Yeah, exactly.

[00:52:07] Robbie: exactly.

[00:52:08] Jason: in Like, yeah. I, we, we have a friend that we, uh, that we sometimes camp with, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna air quote camp, because he has an RV, and it's a very nicely appointed RV, , and we will rent a cabin, right, so that we've got, like, an... Bathroom and a nice bed and all that kind of stuff and we just go to this place and like we're in a cabin in There and their RV and like that they stayed in a place for a long time where they had like Wi Fi And they set up a TV We don't typically do that because I love

[00:52:36] Chuck: I love

[00:52:36] Jason: the experience of camping during the daytime. Like I like being outside by a lake, reading a book. My phone doesn't work. Like it's just this kind of like peaceful, quiet,

[00:52:45] Chuck: Yeah, I agree with

[00:52:46] Jason: Uh, and I like building a fire at night and having a meal around the fire and then we cook marshmallows if there's kids around or whatever. And then I go and sleep in a bed. I think I like everything about camping except the sleeping part. Like I just, I just,

[00:53:01] Chuck: I just,

[00:53:01] Jason: I don't know. Maybe, maybe if I did more yoga, this wouldn't be such a problem for me. But if I sleep on a, on the hard ground, I just walk with a limp for like

[00:53:11] Robbie: a

[00:53:12] Jason: And it's just not worth it

[00:53:14] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, that's reasonable. I just, I mean, I've been in a heavenly bed, why would I want to sleep on the ground? You know? do make

[00:53:23] Robbie: I mean, I

[00:53:24] Chuck: mattresses. I, I, yeah, I mean, I suppose there's all of the, but temperature regulation, am I too cold? I'm always either too cold or too hot in these circumstances. Ugh, that, yeah, all of that.

[00:53:35] Jason: Where am I going to plug in my refrigerator? Like, where do I, how do I keep the

[00:53:40] Robbie: Well, if you car camp, that solves that problem because you put stuff in the car like we would bring iPads and you watch football while camping. Like, you know,

[00:53:49] Chuck: so it's just like stay at

[00:53:50] Jason: That's,

[00:53:50] Robbie: but, but you have the outdoors around you. Yeah.

[00:53:54] Jason: no. That's not a good thing. See, here's, here's the other thing too. I live in Portland, right? So in 45 minutes I can be out in a gorgeous piece of nature, and I can also be home in 45 minutes. So I can go spend most of a day out in nature, and also be home in time to like, take a shower and sleep in my own bed. And I just feel like... I don't know why I would go further than that.

[00:54:14] Chuck: go... I feel like you should do some marketing for like, uh, Portland Hotels. You're like, enjoy nature. And then come back and be comfortable

[00:54:21] Jason: back. The

[00:54:23] Robbie: The nature package. Hilton.

[00:54:27] Chuck: You gotta

[00:54:27] Jason: got to be Marriott. You've got to get those Marriott points. Yeah, I've got the

[00:54:30] Robbie: Bonvoy. Bonvoy,

[00:54:32] Chuck: Yeah, I've got the Bonvoy

[00:54:33] Jason: They've got the best program.

[00:54:34] Chuck: And they have, uh, the Heavenly Beds at, uh, what is it? Which one of theirs? One of their properties has the Heavenly Beds. That's why I always talk about

[00:54:42] Jason: it. Need to figure that out because I have not slept in that

[00:54:45] Robbie: Isn't that the, where we were in Render? Uh, what is that one?

[00:54:50] Jason: super interesting for everybody listening right now. Uh,

[00:54:53] Robbie: that one. Yeah, I was in a bed one time. Anyway,

[00:54:57] Jason: well known that you can get their sheets and all this kind

[00:54:59] Robbie: Yeah, it is the one, but I'm never going to know what it is. And we're out of time. So,

[00:55:03] Chuck: but I'm never gonna know

[00:55:05] Robbie: anything you want to plug? Before we

[00:55:07] Jason: to a

[00:55:07] Chuck: most anticlimactic ending to a podcast. I'll tweet the answer later, if you care. Yeah, we'll

[00:55:10] Robbie: We'll figure out what hotel we were in. We can't remember. Um, yeah. Anything you want to plug or anything for you?

[00:55:16] Jason: I don't know, but like, I do stuff on YouTube. You should hang out there. Learn with jason. dev or lwj. dev if you don't like typing a lot of letters.

[00:55:25] Robbie: I don't like that.

[00:55:26] Chuck: that. That's a clutch. That's a clutch one. Yeah. Cool.

[00:55:29] Robbie: Thanks everyone for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe, leave us some ratings and reviews. We appreciate it. And we will catch you next time. ​