99: OpenSauced, Developer Advocacy, and AI with Brian Douglas

Robbie Wagner: [0:00:10] What's going on everybody? Welcome to another Whiskey, Web, and Whatnot, your favorite podcast about agriculture. Just kidding, it's about Whiskey, Web, and Whatnot. With your hosts RobbieTheWagner and Charles William Carpenter III.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:00:22] William, Willaim. I'm always adding some effect.

Robbie Wagner: [0:00:31] Yeah, always got to interrupt me. Our guest today is B Dougie. What's going on?

Brian Douglas: [0:00:32] Hey, how are you doing? Thanks for the invite. Happy to get in the whiskey with y'all.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:00:38] Yeah yeah, yeah, happy to share it with you...

Brian Douglas: [0:00:42] ...and whatnot as well. I guess I should say Web and whatnot.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:00:43] Of course that's right. We'll trickle our way there eventually.

Robbie Wagner: [0:00:48] So for folks who have maybe not heard of you, can you give us a few sentences about who you are and what you do?

Brian Douglas: [0:00:57] Yeah, yeah, so my birth name is Brian Douglas, but I do go by B Bougie on the internet. I previously worked at GitHub for almost five years and now I run a pizza company, open saucepizza. We were doing insights into open source projects.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:01:10] Just makes me want to ask, as a proprietor of a pizzeria, a pizzaiolo, is what you are, I guess what style of pizza do you prefer?

Brian Douglas: [0:01:20] This might ruffle feathers, but I guess I'll just say Detroit style pizzas. It's something that I really enjoy, the sort of focaccia type bread and the crispy edges and everything about it I love. So shout out to a Little Caesar's who got me into that when I was like a kid. But yeah, nowadays I think it's like it's been like a specialty out here in like San Francisco, people, some of like the more hipster shops, are doing the Detroit style pizza, which has been nice to see.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:01:48] Yeah, that stuff is delicious and full of so much yummy fat. I love how they like crisp up cheese on the bottom and butter. It's like all the good parts. That was a good answer, all right, Brian. So let's talk a little about this whiskey, though let's grease the wheels. So today we're having the Teeling Whiskey. A single pot still. Wonders of Wood series. First edition Chin-Cupin Virgin, Chinkapin Oak Irish Whiskey. Yeah, I don't even know if I can say all those things. Yeah, that looks sweet.

Brian Douglas: [0:02:21] Just do it after the other video.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:02:22] Yeah, I love it, that's all we need is a still of that. That's pretty solid.

Robbie Wagner: [0:02:27] I might have to steal that in the future.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:02:28] So this was the winner of the world's best pot still whiskey at the 2022 World Whiskeys competition. So that's kind of setting it up for a winner Sounds fancy 100 proof. I couldn't find anything about age statements and there's no kind of laws around Irish whiskey, but it's usually younger whiskey, like two to four years, unless it has an age statement on it. So still, it's just 50% malted barley and 50% unmalted barley, so a little malt, a little less malt, I don't know.

Robbie Wagner: [0:02:55] Mix it up. So yeah, let's get to it.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:02:56] Yeah mix the malts, I feel like I need to pour this next to that, yeah.

Brian Douglas: [0:03:02] Oh, it's like such a nice sound.

Robbie Wagner: [0:03:04] Yeah, people have asked like do you just insert those sounds? They're like no, this is like pour it, right here.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:03:09] You know, we just get close to the mic. Apparently it's the bridge to my career in foley, you know, and then always wanted to be a foley artist.

Brian Douglas: [0:03:19] With the writer's strike. I think you might have a role. Yeah, there you go.

Brian Douglas: [0:03:24] They're searching for talents in underground foley work. Yeah, exactly, all right, gonna give it a little smell here. It almost has like a little like mildew to it.

Robbie Wagner: [0:03:36] That's the unmalted.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:03:39] I don't know. I think I smell some malt, I don't know. As a kid I remember going to like the little ice cream thing in the summer and you know they have like you could get a shake or a malt. I never really understood the differences in those two.

Robbie Wagner: [0:03:51] Malt is like a powder. I forget what it's made of.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:03:54] It's malted something like a thickening agent? Yeah, yeah, kind of like milk powder sort of. Thing or whatever yeah something like that.

Robbie Wagner: [0:04:01] I don't know, but this smells nothing like that. It smells like I smell a little bit of mango.

Brian Douglas: [0:04:07] I don't know why, but yeah, I was gonna say like orange or some sort of citrus or maybe like a apricot, like a dry.

Robbie Wagner: [0:04:16] That's an ongoing. We give him a lot of shit because he always says apricot.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:04:19] No, it actually has a little bit of like a lemon in the finish. For me and and I don't know this is gonna sound ridiculous it reminds me a little bit of like a spring morning, right. So I'm getting a little bit of like Floral and mildew it. Like you know, there's like the mildew in the morning.

Robbie Wagner: [0:04:35] It's like if you had some gain. Laundry detergent like that?

Chuck Carpenter: [0:04:36] Yeah, that's probably a little too strong.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:04:42] But it's very interesting and just different than than most Irish whiskies that I've tried. All right, well, Brian, I'll give you the breakdown. I'm sure you're an avid listener of the show but, just in case you've forgotten, we have a very loose rating system. It's one to eight tentacles, based on, of course, an octopus. One being, I hate this and never want to have it again. Eight being like this is amazing. I will put down every other bottle and keep reaching for this one. And then, obviously, you know four just fine. I usually try to like in this instance I'm comparing it to other Irish whiskies, but in general, if you want to just compare it to a whiskey that you like, that you would get on a regular basis for sipping and and then kind of maybe give it that kind of context.

Brian Douglas: [0:05:24] I think it's like it definitely has a bit more flavor than I would probably expect from Irish whiskey. I went to Ireland and did the whole like whiskey tour and kind of like Jameson more like leaving Ireland than I did going to Ireland. Jamonsons like a smooth, like you can mix it with other stuff. This I don't think I'd probably mix it with other stuff. So I guess like a six out of eight.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:05:47] Yeah, yeah, I think that definitely would finish the bottle.

Brian Douglas: [0:05:51] I don't know if I'd go and like reach for another bottle, but like send me more of these and I'll keep drinking them.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:05:57] Fair enough.

That's a pretty good. If we can lock down that Teelings sponsorship, then I'm down to share the wealth. That's a really good point too, though, actually. So this one is on the pricier side, given it's like a limited edition and everything else. I also like Jameson, and I've been to the Jameson, the Gemi, distillery in Dublin. I kind of came away to like thinking initially like it was pretty basic whiskey when I went in, and then it came out and got to Really try like the full array of options that they have and I was like, oh yeah, they've got some great stuff there. I think they have like a 15 year. That's like fantastic actually. So given that context and the price of this one, I think I would. I don't know, I'm kind of between a six and a seven. So they have a Teeling that's finished and run, but rum barrels to that is like delicious and that one has probably like a bit more range and stuff to it. But this is yeah, I'm gonna go seven, YOLO.

Robbie Wagner: [0:06:47] I would say this this tastes like a slight bit scotchy, like a little bit like a scotch light to me, so it's not quite as Irishy as I would have expected. That being said, I think it has a lot of good flavors going for. It doesn't have any of the things that I dislike about scotch. So I think, in terms of other Irish whiskeys, this one's a little more interesting. I think I would go seven as well. I think it's pretty good for the Irish ones we've tried so far.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:07:12] Yeah, that kind of makes sense. I mean again malted, you know, like a single malt, right, that'll be the kind of, and this has those similar things in the mash bill. And then they this different distillation process with Irish ones. A lot of this one, I think, is a single pot still Jameson will actually use like a triple, still no, like triple, distill it over and make it like cleaner and cleaner, which is kind of nice and interesting but does make for a kind of a light whiskey.

Brian Douglas: [0:07:37] Yeah, I'm definitely more of a light, light whiskier. I'm a big fan of it. I don't know if you, if you all spent a lot of time at bars. No, no judgment, but yeah, I do like a Jameson and ginger beer is like my go-to when out at like a happy hour. Nice, refreshing end of the day, did a long talk, just want to relax.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:07:57] Yeah, yeah, that would sound pretty refreshing. I was gonna ask you like kind of, what's your go-to, and guess, guess, we got there. That's probably why we picked an Irish one. Maybe, you know, I don't know.

Brian Douglas: [0:08:06] Here we go. Maybe it's my Irish first name and my Scottish last name. You know, it was in my. It was in my name at least. Maybe not my roots, but the name yeah yeah, Robbie was inspired by that.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:08:18] Yeah, I don't know if you gave him feedback or whatever. I just I wake up and whiskey shows up at my house sometimes and I know Robbie's gone on a shopping spree and he's planning. So that's just the nature of the game. You know, I'm just the talent.

Brian Douglas: [0:08:31] Foley artist and also whiskey whiskey receiver. Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:08:36] Professional whiskey tester. I like to. I like to tell people I should put that on my LinkedIn should help me for my future. So before we get into the web part, we usually ask our guests like some of the same questions, taking little towns, you know. Hot takes from the stuff people are arguing about on Twitter you know, which is kind of funny, but so I guess we'll start with no top of the list. Do you use TypeScript or plain JavaScript?

Brian Douglas: [0:09:02] I've been a full-on TypeScript person for a year now. It was a meme for a while where people would be like, oh, this needs to be TypeScript, and people would open the issue but never do anything about it. And Then it started where people started actually opening up PRs, converting your entire code base to TypeScript. In the open-source world, you receive whiskey. I received TypeScript. So someone converted my entire project to TypeScript and I went with it and nice and never looked back sense.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:09:24] Do you use inferred types or explicit types, or do you prefer one or the other?

Brian Douglas: [0:09:29] That's a good question. Leaning more towards inferred, I had chance and maybe you've actually had Josh Goldberg on here, but I had a chance to talk to him on a podcast, kind of learn how to do proper TypeScript, like six months ago. But yeah, inferred a lot of stuff and I appreciate libraries that do more work for me. So I get this import and I'm good to go.

Robbie Wagner: [0:09:46] Yeah, I tend to agree with that. I don't want to write everything out. I'm lazy.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:09:49] You kind of want to trust the intention of the library maintainer to a degree. I mean, if they're providing them, then overriding that could like really screw with Whatever you're expecting from their, you know, apis or whatever. Tailwind or vanilla CSS?

Brian Douglas: [0:10:04] Man, I, like I'm the the product of I don't know random Youtubers telling me what to use. I use Tailwind probably also. Maybe, like nine, 18 months ago, started a new project, one to try it out, and never looked back after that project took off.

Robbie Wagner: [0:10:19] That's the only one that has a right answer. Because Tailwind is the right answer. But anyway, right, go on to the next one. Chuck sorry to interrupt.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:10:27] Well, some people would say it depends, but you do you. You know, Robbie has the Tailwind socks and Stickers everywhere and I think he's on Adam's payroll, I don't know. Git rebase or git merge?

Brian Douglas: [0:10:40] Oh man, this one, I will go to bat for rebase. I'm rebase all the way. I've definitely worked with a lot of hairy libraries and like long-standing project with what tons of history. And keep the merge commits out of my life, that'd be great.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:10:53] I feel that same way for the most part too. I'm also, though, like a good like us. Being in in the consulting world for a bit, I also try to be like a good guest. So it's sort of like, yes, I want rebase, but I'm not gonna go to bat and fight an existing team because you know it's not affecting their, the product, necessarily, or you know that kind of me from a usability standpoint. But you know, when you have to fix something and read things, it's nicer, I prefer it. If I'm in charge, then I would go that direction, but if I'm not, I'm a I'm a good guest.

Brian Douglas: [0:11:24] So I used to work at Github for a long time. Got started right before the actions was like a feature that shipped. So my entire release orchestration is all built in the idea of rebase and squashing as well, which another sort of contention for a lot of folks. But we do merge commits to the main branch just so the releases can get cut, but every single commit in the merge has history and then we generate a bunch of change logs and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's just to make the, the bots, happy. This, this rebase, and everything will work out in the end.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:11:57] So then we go back to it depends. But if you're working in a PR branch, you know working in PR branch and that kind of thing like doing rebases and just making sure that like things are inserted without extra things, I know Robbie will say, well, you can squash, merge and then you get all that out of there. But well, it's still kind of cleaner and I like the insertion to make sure, like the insertion of time is, is kind of correct.

Robbie Wagner: [0:12:15] Yeah if you're cutting releases, you shouldn't squash and merge into that, like for that process, because People do that and then try to merge it back into main or something and you get like Boom, like it doesn't work.

Brian Douglas: [0:12:35] Yeah, I guess it really does depend, because if we do, we have like a whole beta, main, alpha branch systems. Everything goes to beta first and then we cut a beta release, then we do a merge commit from beta to main. But the game is like never don't mess that strategy up, because main just gets all the commits inserted and the only reason we do a merge commit at that point is because we don't want to cut a new release at the time of the thing getting merged. And that's how our we use semantic release as well, so everything's triggered based on conventional commits system.

Robbie Wagner: [0:13:03] So what do you think about signals?

Brian Douglas: [0:13:04] Signals, oh man, I guess they exist. I've read a couple blog posts from who is it me Go from quick? Or builder IO, creator of Angular and actually one of the guys who works with me and head of engineering, Brandon I think, is exploring adding signals to his analog framework. So he, the guy who runs engineering for open sauce, he has a open source framework that uses Vite and angular to kind of modernize that stack a bit I haven't put too much like emphasis or energy and to really caring about that. One day Someone will tell me this would be the best thing ever like it. Someone will tell me we should use it kind of like hooks, and react. One day I woke up and someone told me I should use that and I did, and TypeScript was also very similar, even though it took like 10 years for that to happen. And when signals is a thing, well, it's a thing now. But when someone's like, oh yeah, Brian, we should add signals to our code base, I'm like, oh, okay, sure

Chuck Carpenter: [0:13:59] Right, right, you decide to try a project that's running solid JS so we're, like you said, quick or whatever else. Then I guess you'll dive in at that point.

Brian Douglas: [0:14:12] Yeah, and honestly, I haven't built anything in solid yet I've been meaning to like. I guess I'm about now at a point, just like summertime, when you start a side project because the kids are upstairs and you got to like you need a couple hours, so let's go build something. So maybe I built something with signals this summer.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:14:28] I don't think we mentioned that. You also have a podcast.

Brian Douglas: [0:14:33] Oh, I do. Yeah, I have a few. So I have got the secret saucers of the podcast we started when I left GitHub to do open source full time. Here's a secret sauce for starting a company don't ship any code, Just go talk to your future customers, then you'll eventually know what you should build. So we did that and then, previous to that, I started a podcast at Netlify. My previous employer called Jamstack Radio and that's exactly what it sounds like. We just talked to a bunch of Jamstack people about Jamstack and then we ship podcasts every other week.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:15:03] Alrighty. So how did you find yourself into that path from developer to developer experience and developer advocacy?

Brian Douglas: [0:15:10] I got a finance degree in 2008. Had no job because of the last recession, went to sales, got my MBA. While getting my MBA, I learned how to code because I thought, oh, I should build a business from code with no overhead. And then that turned into like startup work. Worked in as an engineer, as it's a bunch of startups in San Francisco and Netlify's were really. They asked me because I was doing a bunch of like podcasting and blogging because that was a way for me to like stay up to speed on what I could learn next. And then Netlify asked me if I could go full time to do that and I told them no. And then 12 months later, we hired our second fronted engineer and they asked me again. I was like cool, I'll do it full time. And it was like nine months later, Github asked me to work at GitHub, so I joined there as like first advocate ever at GitHub in 2018. And built out a developer relations team and that was fun and now I am not doing that anymore.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:16:02] Yeah, that's a really interesting thing, I know that. I brings to mind that, like how new that position in general is. You know, developer advocacy and developer experience, developer relations, those are kind of all meshed together in different ways and I'm sure every company kind of has their own description of what that job looks like. But to a degree you're like helping people through issues, get comfortably familiar with the tools and documentation available to them and just kind of be a partner in what they're building, and that be.

Brian Douglas: [0:16:32] Yeah, it's yeah. So I joined Netlify because they saw me using Netlify so I was employee number three and they're like, hey, you should come and work here. And I was like sure, the company I was working at was not doing very well. So I was like let me just take a chance at yet another startup. The benefit of that experience was I just knew how to use Netlify very well, like really good, and was like building the features for other people to use Netlify like also well. So the thing that turned me into a developer experience, which Netlify kind of was one of the first.

There are other teams that everyone's kind of relations. They were one of the teams that were shipping code and doing the advocate side, which like the developer experience role. Sarah Drasner joined right after I left. Whole other story there, but she was already about to join. I'm like I kind of got to go to GitHub. It's going to be a great time, but Sarah's awesome too. So I was the first team member to split time and do both roles and be the experienced person.

And then Sarah came in, I left and then she kind of built the team around that experience. So she had way more knowledge. I give her all the claim to fame for building the great team that Netlify was for developer experience, but it definitely was a trend that you see more and more companies are like, yeah, we want our advocates to ship a bunch of code and ship features and talk about those features. At the end of the day, the advocate role's been around for a while. It didn't really get like prominent until like 2015, 2016. And then you see the evolution of that and now more and more companies want an advocate earlier and earlier in their trajectory and I think it proves it's a good role to have people who can talk to developers and ship code.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:18:05] Yeah, I think that's it right there. I think you touched on it Is that it's not that these are responsibilities that are brand new to our industry. It's that it's been recognized as not necessarily just part of a product team's responsibilities, that perhaps it deserves a more dedicated role and multiple in teams at a certain scale. But yeah, I think it's kind of like when people talk about like DevOps right, like it's not that DevOps is new in the last 10 years. It's just we called it something different a while ago and maybe we had us shifted those responsibilities and kind of, you know, shared it across a product team or whatever else, and I think we're discovering that there's some inefficiencies around that can't do everything super well and we care about DX more in general. I guess that's the other aspect of it.

Brian Douglas: [0:18:49] Yeah, and you see a lot of companies that care about it earlier on tend to hit like a stride, and I think SupaBase comes to mind. I don't know if I've heard anybody on SupaBase on the podcast yet, but you should definitely get them on. They just have a really good experience around how they ship features, how they talk about the features, how they engage community. Supabase has been around since 2020. So like within three years now they've built a model where everyone wants to do a launch week because there's so much success around how they operate and how they just kind of they trust their users by giving them quality content and quality interactions. There was a time where I cite Firebase, so I don't mean that speak ill of Firebase, but like when they got acquired by Google, everything changed. I mean they had like perfect documentation to now it's like sterile. It checks the boxes but doesn't really help you, and you see a shift in industry away from Firebase or people still use it. But if you use Flutter, I guess you still use Firebase pretty heavily.

But not so much in the world that I operated.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:19:48] People who are in open source or people that are trying to like build some early products or just do POCs and that kind of thing. Yeah, I think that whole experience like massively deteriorated like post acquisition and unfortunately it probably fell victim to what Google does. Sometimes they acquire, they try a few things and then they lose interest if it doesn't like catch fire unintended, immediately. So it's a. Yeah, I love how Supabase stepped in and provided like great docs, great experience. They're also like telling you we offer you a cloud version, you can self host, you can like there's a lot of different things too. So they make like a change in architecture, not super challenging and vendor locking and things like that too, and like people just respect that and then they're willing to pay the bill because they're like great, I'm not trapped.

Robbie Wagner: [0:20:38] And I think they're a good case study for anyone who's thinking, oh, just copying someone else is not a good thing to do. They took a lot of ideas from Firebase and just got rid of the shitty stuff and made it nice and do that as your next startup and something that's pretty good. But you can make some changes too.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:20:56] There's something that was great, that got shittier and then bring it back. Yeah, I'm going to bring back GeoCities. Are you going to do Myspace?

Robbie Wagner: [0:21:04] Yeah, I'll do Myspace, yeah, I think honestly.

Brian Douglas: [0:21:07] I feel like we're saying everyone complains about like how many Spider-Man's have we seen, or Batman origin stories and movies we've seen, but it's the same thing in a web where I'm seeing like well, they haven't shipped this yet, but GeoCities is coming back, it's a company.

I talked to recently and everyone's trying to make it easier for people to get on the internet and on the web because now it's trivial. But now we've got this new Apple vision that just came out yesterday, now that the world will be okay. How can they? Well, we thought it was the metaverse, now it's the Apple thing. Who knows, like I have low expectations with this device $3,500 to look through some glass. Also, I wear glasses, so who knows how that's going to work? But yeah, the world will be GeoCities on Apple vision. That's the tagline, that's the title of this podcast.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:21:56] I like it. I like where this is gone. I mean we should definitely give Open Sauced, it's just due. But also we can just talk about tech at large in general. I did see that I probably have higher expectations than you do out of this one. I just love the idea that, no matter where I'm at, I can have as many large screens as I want. I don't need three monitors, I can have three monitors or one, or a huge one, that's a good point.

Yeah, you're traveling and you want to watch a big screen experience. They are dorky looking. I mean, let's be honest, they're kind of goofy looking. You're going to see people walking around with these damn things.

Robbie Wagner: [0:22:32] What's the resolution like? because if you can get rid of monitors it's a bargain. An XDR is what? Seven grand yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:22:40] So if you can get like 6K or even just 4K kind of level stuff, this could be pretty interesting. I would still step up the gaming aspect of it, though. I talked about that a little bit. But just watching Star Wars on the road isn't going to be enough for me. The gaming aspect would be pretty cool.

Brian Douglas: [0:22:58] We had an engineer that started in two weeks. We hired our fourth employee at Open Sauced recently, so I'm just going to pat myself on the back. Then we're shipping Apple devices and then we're also shipping a new monitor to this person. I've got a 34 inch LG widescreen or whatever. If you want a 38 inch, it's like 1200 bucks. If you want an Apple Cinema display, it's like what? I don't know what the number is, but a laptop is 4,500. So I guess if productivity is improved or if you want to like code on the back of your wall or your ceiling or whatever, maybe that's a win. It'd be nice not to carry this laptop upstairs and just throw on some goggles. But yeah, we'll see. If Apple, if you offer discount coupon codes, please send one my way and I would love to try it out.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:23:45] There you go. That's very kind of you. I'm sure Tim's going to. He listens to this, and so I'm sure he's going to hit you up.

Brian Douglas: [0:23:50] Oh, shout out to Tim Apple.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:23:51] Yeah, that's right. It is an interesting thing though, like the first time an employee says I don't want any of those monitors, I want these goggles, those are my, that's my monitors and I'm going to save you money long term. I don't know, I'll get a cheaper laptop and do the overall expense. I don't know. Yeah, it could be interesting Well just kidding.

Brian Douglas: [0:24:07] I've had the benefit. I think it's always been like remote first company, despite the fact that they're closing their offices this year. It was always what do you want your desk to be? And I chose when I joined. My desk was at home, so they bought me a desk. They bought me a chair, a monitor, and it's like you choose, you pick. The Microsoft world made a little more. Here's the machine you get type of deal. But pre Microsoft world it was nice because it was a thousand bucks for a desk is the was the limit. So people were going to like West Elm and getting like really, really nice furniture because they didn't need a monitor. Is one like the full expense to be the desk. I feel like I'm outing. Get up and poise. Now there's going to be an audit. Okay, let's see what you spent the money on. But yeah, that was the truth of the matter. Like you just got to pick the desk you want, pick the machine you wanted and just do your job in the best situation.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:24:54] Yeah, like happy, like you can nickel and dime employees or you can help make them happy and loyal, and I feel like having them comfortable in their working environment, where they're going to spend a ton of time, is a good investment at the end of the day. Like, who cares if they told you like you can spend a thousand on a desk and you can spend 1500 on a monitor, and you're like I don't need a monitor, I'm going to spend $2,500. I mean, it's the same total, right, like those are the line and that's a total. Who cares? I said I think so. You're not outing anyone in my mind, but who knows, I guess if a GitHub accountant calls you up and says I'd like some names, sir.

Brian Douglas: [0:25:33] Not to throw shade, but they all got laid off in the last layoff, so they're we're good.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:25:37] Yeah, yeah, no-transcript, all right. Well, let's talk about current company open sauced pizza, Detroit pizza.

Brian Douglas: [0:25:45] I've spent a lot of time in the open source world, like when I did DevRel, a GitHub. I've met with all the open source maintainers that you we've all heard of, got to become friends with them and there was like a Consistent theme of like missing opportunity or missing feature on GitHub and particularly the insight tab. So in our site of repository you see insights and it's there, it exists, but most people will find an underwhelming experience. So when I saw that out there to just build a whole product around, get up insights, it's all you had. Fred from Astro on, like I told Fred this a couple years ago. Like Astro 2021, first quarter number one project for new contributors, that's data that everyone should know across industry. Like if you want to be an open source contributor. Like where people contributing, where is success happening. So that's that's what we're seeking to do. And also support enterprises and understanding like tech debt and Understanding where code contributions. So TL;DR is like we take git commits and we turn those into insights.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:26:38] Oh. Nice, okay, so I hadn't really considered that that context of things. So in an enterprise environment you can still do similar analysis and it's just based on private repos and give them a little bit of some insight around productivity.

Brian Douglas: [0:26:52] Correct, yeah and like we want to move away from the big brother. Like tools that exist so there's a lot of them out there which tells you if you've done like three or four PRs this week and if you haven't done it, then you have to like write up a report on the way what you were doing, other than shipping PRs, which encourages the wrong thing. Like you don't want to count 10 small PRs versus the one giant bohemian PR. Please don't ship giant bohemian PRs. Like let's, let's break this up people. But the idea there is like we want to met, we want to measure what's going well, which is open source. Like people come together to do a thing, even if they're getting paid or not, like they're all working for the same cause. And if you can have that same energy at your enterprise or actually your young startup, like we should be able to like rebuild that experience. So open source first is where we're focused on supporting open source, but like we have a pathway into and supporting enterprises really soon.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:27:41] Yeah, I think that's a difficult metric to consider and give like reasonable feedback about, because on One hand, it's it's kind of like story points or any of those things right, like what you mentioned is you can game the system. If you know the rules, you can game the system and is it really valuable at that point? And also, you're just trying to Micro manage people and you want to like get away from that as well. You just want to see, like what's really happening in the code and what's working and what's not. It made me think of Code Climate right away. Right, that's one of those that was like trying to utilize productivity metrics and what's happening.

And I just saw it get skewed, though, by leadership people higher up in the leadership tree and then start to like look at velocity, look at these code climate metrics and be like, oh, how do we do more ship more? Well, yes and no, maybe these things can help you, but story points are just never meant for leadership. And then the other things started to like get gamed. Like if you slap someone on the wrist because they're not doing the couple of things that they cue as success within those metrics, then people will be like, great well, I don't want to hear that again. So now I will split up and do 10 tiny PRs.

Brian Douglas: [0:28:46] During the pandemic there was the, I don't know if people actually did this, but it was a meme on tick tock where you just like, wiggle your mouse on a call, so that way, with the show that you're, you're still working. So you like you're just sitting watching Netflix and stuff like that and you have to go like wiggle your mouse for a bit. So people created devices to wiggle in the mouse for you.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:29:03] Yeah, and and scripts to to. I saw in like a subreddit or something and people wrote some like scripts. You can have an Apple script or whatever and it would like trigger that motion or whatever to like make sure it was always awake.

Brian Douglas: [0:29:16] I won't mention specifically this person, but a person that's close to me, family-wise, works at a fintech and they had an issue where I think they connected the they actually signed into their IT account on their machine and then like was a whole Like question around hey, what, what's happening on your machine? Security, what awarded that? This happened. It was like no, I just signed it in the wrong account. Like, using this sort of inertia, signed in the wrong thing. But at a fintech it makes a lot of sense. Do you want to have security and that? But like when it comes to big brother, like making sure you're at your machine during core hours and make sure you have the right sir yeah, you're not scrolling through Facebook or Twitter all day. Like that becomes a little interesting.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:29:58] Yeah, interesting is one way to classify it. I think it's like a massive lack of trust and the same thing that we're talking about around Having a comfortable work environment. Well, you know, this is about environment as well, and if you feel like you're untrusted and being monitored and every second must be productive the misnomer that our Work is typing characters, right like that it's only that that there's not a thinking or research component or things that aren't like sitting in front of your computer all the time. It's not reasonable. So what is the output you're getting? You know you should be talking about successful output and business objectives. Are you hitting those things then? Who fucking cares if they're on Facebook or whatever else?

Brian Douglas: [0:30:42] Yeah, so we lucked out. We got two interns from the Octernship program from GitHub. I'm still pretty well connected with GitHub, even though I left. I like to say I'm kind of a big deal there. But yeah, so we have two interns and basically three weekends ago I built like AI features just like everyone else is doing, open AI embedded to the product, generated summaries on poor quest. Half built it like on a Saturday and it was like, hey, interns, take this along for the ride, and they've like this kind of ran with it.

I've been cleaning up some stuff and like writing some tests and doing some other random things. The majority of the work's happening through interns that are still in college and all I do is like review PRs, so like if I had a big brother watching me and be like hey, Brian, you're not really doing any work, you're just like commenting on PRs and stuff like that. Be like, yeah, well, look at the output. Like I've got folks who are, frankly, paid less than I am to do way more work than I can like hopefully we can give them a great job after the fact, like down the road. But in reality it's like now I've scaled the team 2x and now I'm a 3x developer at this point.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:31:46] Yeah, that's amazing, because at that point, you're a technical lead and you're guiding the work to ensure that it maintains standards and they're learning along the way. Like that is still a job necessary within projects, exactly like you were saying. Is that? Oh yeah, you're not contributing code? Are you a failure? Well, no, clearly not, because you're. The team is in it together and you are ensuring that they are successful. Right, and that is quality and all of those things are accounted for along the way. I'm curious, because your product is built around missing metrics within GitHub. Do you have plans ever in the future to like support other like GitLab? Yeah, yeah.

Brian Douglas: [0:32:28] Git host providers. Yeah, 100%, I sought out to start that way. It is 100%. Like, everything we look on the site today is all GitHub focused, but that's not really our limitation. The limitation is really that's what's all. The open source code is happening. But GitLab if you're listening, I do have an email out to you. Like definitely respond to that.

We had a conversation late last year but because GitLab's git based, like we can do the same analysis and insights into the same product.

Like we're still pretty early. Like I left GitHub in September, we had a product shipped by December ready to use, roughly, and then we've just done a lot of conversations with large enterprises and customers about, like, what's missing, how can we ship that? And like we're just now at the point where we're now shipping the next version of the product to be able to say, okay, you could use this for your team for discovering open source, for sourcing developers. So the goal is to eventually like be able to support GitLab and BitBucket and any self-hosted enterprise that wants to use this as well. Like your internal insights are very similar to what we can show on the dashboard and I'm super excited to hopefully, why don't I put a date on it. That's shipping code. I'm basically a product manager now, and what I've learned as a product manager is never put a date on it. So let's say Q3, we have something we can showcase and share with folks.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:33:44] You heard it here, folks by September of this year it'll be fully baked. This pizza will be ready Fully baked ready to go Detroit style.

Brian Douglas: [0:33:53] We'll have your coupon or we'll get free pizza to everyone, just to divert all the bad press.

Robbie Wagner: [0:34:01] Yeah, there you go. Yeah, you have a coupon for free pizza. If you see a bug, you get free pizza.

Brian Douglas: [0:34:08] Yeah, actually back in the day, I don't know if you guys went to school in the states, we would read books in the summer and you get a pizza hut party or what not. We'd love to incorporate that in the open sauce around contributions. So, instead of getting free t-shirts from digital like Hacktoberfest, why don't you rather have a personal pan pizza instead?

Chuck Carpenter: [0:34:27] Totally, that's pretty cool. Okay, a couple of questions. Well, this is non-tech, but I'm just curious what part of Florida did you grow up in?

Brian Douglas: [0:34:35] In the suburbs of Tampa, so just off the Tampa road. If anybody's listening, I say that because I keep running in the people who are from the same area as me, which I find completely fascinating.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:34:47] But yeah, that's cool. My brother lives in St Pete so I'm a little bit familiar. Yeah, this is other side across the bay.

Brian Douglas: [0:34:55] Yeah, that's a small world.

Robbie Wagner: [0:34:59] Everybody lived in Tampa, right? Oh, did he? I think, when was he? Somewhere in Florida, Chris Coyer.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:35:07] Oh yeah, they were in Florida for a little bit. He's from Wisconsin.

Brian Douglas: [0:35:16] Yeah, he has a very Midwestern accent. I know American accents, I just throw Canadian ones.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:35:20] Right, and especially when they get close to the border they start to kind of blend together. So you're like are you from Minnesota or are you from Canada? I don't know eh.

Robbie Wagner: [0:35:31] That was freaking convincing.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:35:33] Yeah, well, that's my third career. I want to do some voice work.

Brian Douglas: [0:35:38] Excellent.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:35:39] Yeah, I could. Oh gosh, I need to drink more of this whiskey and then I can maybe do a proper Irish accent. Have a bit of a drum here, eh.

Brian Douglas: [0:35:49] That's better than my short stented Australian. That was not too good yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:35:54] I don't even touch that one. That one's a rough one, it's hard. I feel like it's hard but it's so obvious. Like you know, when you meet an Australian you're like, oh yeah, shrimp on the barbie. But it always ends up going like kind of British and kind of Irish Really? Just yeah, exactly. See, I just can't Well once I put myself in one of those more challenging voices.

Brian Douglas: [0:36:15] You see, my Australian accent goes into pirate talk pretty quickly, right, right, because it's a lot of righty mates and stuff like that. This turns into our garden stuff.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:36:27] I don't like it.

Brian Douglas: [0:36:29] Yeah, I'll go ahead and stop that now.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:36:31] You'll have to switch to drinking rum. It'll be a whole change in branding. You can't really relate pirates and pizza together, even though it's kind of close fanatically or something else. It's really devolved, didn't it?

Robbie Wagner: [0:36:45] I don't know how we got to pirates and pizza. I can't.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:36:49] Yeah, exactly, pizza making it great, that was their old thing.

Robbie Wagner: [0:36:53] You don't remember Robbie?

Chuck Carpenter: [0:36:55] You know? Did you know that Robbie is only 21?

Robbie Wagner: [0:36:58] That's not true. He looks much older, that's not true, oh, happy birthday.

Brian Douglas: [0:37:01] So he doesn't even know what you're talking about I'm 32.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:37:07] Basically the same to you, I guess. Well, and then the other burning question, and this could start to go into what 90 things, but I don't know. I bet someone's asked you this before, but I'm just wondering could you teach me how to dougie?

Brian Douglas: [0:37:21] I can, yeah, you. Basically you take two cans and you pour one and the other one and then you sort of two-step with it. It's hard I'm sitting down, but yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [0:37:30] Yeah.

Brian Douglas: [0:37:31] It's a thing that was my college years was the dougie, and I taught people how to dougie all through my years at GitHub.

Robbie Wagner: [0:37:38] That's funny.

Brian Douglas: [0:37:39] Actually, that's my newsletter Teach me how to dougie. I haven't shipped a newsletter since last year, but I was doing a DevX newsletter for a while.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:37:47] Oh, that's cool, I'll sign up if you bring it back. I love the title alone, and I also realized that I'm not that clever.

Brian Douglas: [0:37:53] So you didn't expect to teach me how to dougie for dummies.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:37:58] Yeah, and you gave a good visual, though, because I know, what you're saying. You're seated, but the way you described it, you was like oh yeah.

OK, that makes sense. So, ok, you said you have two ongoing podcasts currently the one for open-sauced and then the jam stack has been going on for a little bit. An interesting thing, because people ask us often and I feel you're way more experienced in this thing sort of like, for those that want to try to start a podcast, what's the first thing, what do you think is the most important first thing in starting a podcast?

Brian Douglas: [0:38:29] Book 7 guests or book records, seven episodes. I think that's the kind of the rule done for a lot of people is. Seven is kind of the drop off for people, so you do seven and then either succeeds or fails, Because if you do seven or you do eight you're probably going to do 100. But if you do six you're probably never going to do a recording ever again.

The one thing I learned pretty early on is like don't ship any of them until you hit number six and then start releasing when you had six in the can. So just start recording. It doesn't have to be perfect, because chances are people aren't going to listen to the first one. Actually, chances are they're probably listening to the first 10 when they've discovered your podcast. But oh yeah, this is great, I'll listen to all of them on my drive down to Sarasota or whatever, or to the beach. So my thing is like just do it. If it doesn't work out, use all that knowledge and start a new one, rename it, rebrand it, create a new URL and act like it never happened.

I started a podcast when I first learned how to code, called this Developing Story because like, the startup podcast came around the same time and the startup podcast is like Gimlet, which has been acquired by Spotify the whole trajectory of how they started up the startup and he would just record like short vignettes of, like his experience of quitting his job and doing the next thing. And then it turned into listening to other startups how their story went and then it got bigger and bigger. But the first couple episodes were like they were OK, they weren't amazing, but it just started a journey and that's how they got to the point where they got acquired, for I don't think they acquired for a lot of money or anything. It was like an ability to have a story and just continue and to do it and like pick cadence and stick to it. So, like Jamstack Radio specifically did every other week, because I wanted an off week to like not have to worry about like getting an episode turned around and shipped and recorded. So because we have an every other week, it like just shows up in your feed but you know when it's coming. Like you forget when it's coming and then when it does come, it's here but it's like a weekly thing. People are like oh man, you missed two weeks. What happened? Are you pod fading or did you quit? Are you guys fighting?

I enjoy Jamstack Radio because I don't have the pressure to, because I'm a solo host, don't only have some of the fall back on. Ironically, we started with the co-host and by episode two we had zero co-host. I was a solo host for what I think I'm 124 episodes every other week for the past seven years, eight years. So anyway, basically, pick a cadence, stick to it. Build up a backlog before you ship your first one, so that way you have like expectation. And then like you could also do the episode zero or whatever, like the intro, because everyone goes back and listens to that first episode. Make that like, hey, this is a podcast about this, I love you to subscribe. Blah, blah, blah, do that thing and then the next episode is the one where you get into it.

Robbie Wagner: [0:41:06] I like the every other week thing, because we do every week and when we miss one it's like fuck, like our producers are like pissed at us. And then it's like, ok, with this Glaring like red, like you didn't make this week or what like yeah. So having some flexibility or getting a bunch done first to where you can like, yeah.

If you're gonna do weekly, but you got ten ready, then you can kind of you know, but yeah, it's, it's tough, it's tough to do like make sure you hit it all. But that is really important because people go oh, it comes out today, and then you missed one. And then they go well, this new podcast came out. I'm gonna listen to them instead. See you later.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:41:41] So yeah, and you little bit of continuity or whatever there. Yeah, I feel like we get rushed into. Well, well, you know, we didn't book a guest or something happened and Now we just have to talk to each other, which just for me, they are less in interesting, right?

Robbie Wagner: [0:41:57] Yeah, like we've talked to each other enough. Yeah, I'm really done talking to you.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:42:02] I'm just talking to Brian here, don't, don't respond to me Okay. So the more I kind of sip this, I do start to get a little smokiness in the finish. So it's interesting. I don't know if you affected me with your mentions of scotch, but I feel like as it opens up it starts to get a little smokiness in the finish, for me a little.

Robbie Wagner: [0:42:18] I think it's like all the good parts of scotch. Personally, I didn't have any downsides. Yeah, no.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:42:24] I don't change my rating based on that, but I just was gonna point that out as I have a little bit as the episode goes on. It's like oh yeah.

This has like changed a little bit. I would be curious what like a couple of drops of water or something else would do to it. So, dear listener, still still recommended by me, so we could talk about some other things other than these tech things. What are you most excited for in AI? And I know that's still kind of techy, but we can Just kind of change from code and change from just like our world is being affected by this.

Brian Douglas: [0:42:55] Yeah, it is. I mean, I got the opportunity to like be part of like the, the sort of the launch team for a Github co-pilot, so like I helped on the develop relations part of that that experience Everyone was sort of like, oh, I was just gonna take our jobs or what's happening? Is there a future for developers already? I'll go low code and start doing like this, I guess, perfect our CSS. I don't know what the fear was, but what I'm getting at is like we've entered the age of okay, everyone's doing these automation tools to like generate tests or generate comments from our code, from comments or whatever that mostly is working. There's a lot of polish it still needs to happen.

But the more interesting part is like the data play and the folks who are like Succeeding on, the folks who have their own data models like source graph they're using Cody. Cody is like this sort of telling me about a repo, give me a story or whatever, and then Replit has their data model, which started with ghostwriter, but now, like Replit has this whole ecosystem of people who don't like get are basically college students who are building scripts and it's like a massive amount of data that you can generate, generate like explanations in history from. So the underlying technology for that are vector databases, and we're seeing more and more vector DB's get shipped, so pine cone being one of them, super basic shifters like I think, like Friday or Monday or something like that. Chroma is another one, but now we're seeing, like, the tech under the AI be exposed and we can now see the expansion. So I think there's always gonna be developers hands down like I think we'll just gonna get paid more, cuz there'll be less of us, which is fine for us. We just have to continue to learn, whatever the next thing is.

But now what's interesting is that the infrastructure like when everything went to the cloud, everything changed. Now you had to go where, had you demops, or they didn't call it DevOps then, but now it's like how do you set your data up so it can be ingested by a vector DB? So you can just ask it questions. So we have this random recipe store and you're like, hey, I've got ketchup pickles and hamburger buns. Like what can I make? Oh, hamburgers, but anyway, that's not a great example. But basically, like you can, you can ask it questions and get get better examples than I can give you as a human.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:44:59] It kind of reminds me IBM Watson. They had like a recipe thing where you would just give it a gradient so they would spit back some recipes bits that year. So I love that. It would do like sentiment analysis. That stuff was cool.

Brian Douglas: [0:45:11] So, being on the Bay area, like there were some like ML Engineers UC Berkeley I still live like down the street from there they had a bunch of ML like AI stuff that the people were working on, but like in 2015. It's like, oh cool, good luck with that. We'll see if this ever ships. Lo and behold, less than 10 years later, here we go. It shipped sort of like the Alexa devices. Well, I probably should have said that out loud Alexa turn off, yeah, but hot headphones on but I guess what I'm getting is like everyone thought it was voice that mattered.

But really what developers want is we don't want to type stuff Like I want to type a question and get an answer, I don't want to talk to my computer, and for folks who need to talk to the computer or want to like, you have that. But I think we figured out the developer experience and it's another one's. The last time you guys use Stack Overflow, I feel like I don't.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:45:57] I less and less find myself on less and less often. Yeah, yeah, I mean chat GPT as like the new Google is.

Robbie Wagner: [0:46:05] Yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:46:06] Is very productive in a lot of ways. If you're like using it smart and feeding it good prompts and all that kind of stuff. It's just so much faster and easier to get get to the answers because you go to Stack Overflow and you've got all these. And even if it's the accepted answer, is it, is it new enough? Is there syntax changes, additions to the spec and all kinds of things that can make this answer a little different? Or it worked on my machine and then you try the same thing and doesn't work and okay, now I have to find the next issue and see if that applies. Yeah, there's a lot of like trying to distill all that stuff down and what's garbage and real Well, I mean, I guess to a degree, chat GPT is some of that. Right, you need to distill and work through some of the bad, but it feels like it's easier to get to the good.

Brian Douglas: [0:46:48] That's what's fascinating is like this evolution that we're seeing in front of our eyes and I think in two or three years from now would be like oh, that was a weird moment, but I guess I'm wearing my Apple vision now to code and how could I ever live without these things?

Chuck Carpenter: [0:47:02] You know we were at Render last week. I know you were not able to attend. Did you catch any of the talks? Though?

Brian Douglas: [0:47:09] I caught the tweets. I did not catch any talks. I ended up booking like a trip to visit some family the same week as render and I was like, ironically I was in Tennessee so I could have, like this, drove down and been there, but it was my twin brother. I haven't seen him in years, so figured that was more important than render. Yeah, but definitely would love to check it out next year. The people I love to hang out with and see and probably it seems like all the guests on these podcasts were at render as well. But yeah, no, I didn't catch the content, but I definitely got the FOMO for the event that Justin and team put together.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:47:39] Yeah, it's intense. I mean there's a lot of people, there's a lot of like simultaneous things going on, so you get. Even if you're there, you get some FOMO because you're like, oh crap. Well, there's these, four talks at one o'clock that only go to one which one?

Brian Douglas: [0:47:50] and yeah, only go to one. I think that the meme was that Render is kind of like a party with some tech talks in it and when I went two years ago it was basically that I honestly did not Ever hit the bed in the hotel like before 1 am. It was just like always a thing that was happening after and they did a really good job of just like if you wanted to drop off and go back to the hotel, like that's totally fine and cool. I think it was like right after COVID, what 2021? So it would have been after like all the lockdowns and stuff like that. It was like a freeing experience. I'm like, oh cool, I get to hang out with all the people from the internet. I look forward to seeing what render turns into in the next couple years.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:48:24] I truly think it's gonna be like South by Southwest in the summertime in Atlanta every year and that's like think what their their goal is yeah, I could see that that makes a lot more sense, and I can see it, whereas it's more of like the festival socialization, like interconnectivity of all these people working in tech. You know that's. It's segmented in that way. But yeah and then, oh, by the way, there's some talks. If you, if you have time, you want jump into that, but there's so much happening organically around it too, so expect a pizza party next year.

Well, now I'm gonna book my ticket.

Robbie Wagner: [0:48:58] It wasn't.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:48:58] We'll bring the whiskey locked in now, aside from pizza, do you have any other hobbies?

Brian Douglas: [0:49:02] I play a lot of music in college. I was like a self-taught engineer, so it's also self-taught musician. I just like doing stuff, like I like learning things. I'll revive my YouTube channel the next. By the time this comes out, I'll have a new video up. But yeah, it's like the whole YouTube thing and, honestly, I was drinking a lot of whiskey pre-pandemic. It reminds me of when I was at a startup in San Francisco. There was a guy who was an engineer who taught a whiskey class that you see, berkeley. We would buy a bottle together like everyone put in 10 bucks and we'd all like sip whiskey on Fridays I think was every other week, kind of you know pace ourselves. But I learned a lot about whiskey during then. So, yeah, big fan, I was super excited for you guys to reach out back. Yeah, let's, let's whiskey web and whatnot together.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:49:44] Yeah, much focus on the whatnot you know, because Robbie, he doesn't know that much yeah.

Robbie Wagner: [0:49:50] I just use Ember yeah.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:49:52] I don't know if you've heard of that thing, but it's got a cool hamster.

Brian Douglas: [0:49:56] It does. Yet Ember was actually my first job as good framework that I cut my teeth on. Worked at a company in Orlando for like 10 months. This was like the first job after the sales shop. Yeah, we export Ember, implementing Ember into the, the platform, and we hosted the Ember JS Orlando meet-up as well. So, yeah, years ago, a long time ago, it feels like forever.

Robbie Wagner: [0:50:16] Yeah, it's been around a while, but yeah it's.

Chuck Carpenter: [0:50:19] It's still holding strong the fact that five was released is is pretty incredible. So it goes to show you there's something to it, I guess we're about a time here.

Robbie Wagner: [0:50:29] Is there anything we miss? Talking about anything you'd like to plug before we end?

Brian Douglas: [0:50:32] I guess the only thing I plug is we have a newsletter called it's a sauce newsletter. So news.opensauced.pizza open sauce that pizzas, the, the URL that open sauce exists. I would love people to sign up to that, because we work hard to disseminate information around open source and we love people to sign up for that. So one day I'll teach people how to Dougie in the future, but for now we're teaching the secret sauce through a newsletter. It's probably more productive. Yeah, a little more effort. Like Dougie, I could do with my eyes closed. These what are at, though. Keep my eyes open and type.

Robbie Wagner: [0:51:04] Yeah, all right, cool. Thanks everybody for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe. Leave us some ratings and reviews. We appreciate it and we'll catch you next time.