Whiskey Web and Whatnot

A whiskey fueled fireside chat with your favorite web developers.


107: Polaris, Vite, and Exploring the Future of Ember with Jared Galanis and Preston Sego

Show Notes

Recorded at EmberConf from the heart of the Multnomah Whiskey Library with Jared Galanis, Software Engineer on the Ember Learning Team, and Preston Sego aka NullVoxPopuli, Software Artificer at AuditBoard, Chuck and Robbie delve into the evolution and future of the Ember framework.

Though Ember isn’t often in the spotlight for being cutting-edge, Jared and Preston unravel the exciting developments in the Ember ecosystem. The conversation centers around Ember Polaris, the eagerly awaited next edition of the Ember framework. Preston explains the concept of "editions" in semantic versioning and how Polaris aims to provide a cohesive story for integrating new features. They also discuss Ember's shift to Vite as a modern build system, resulting in improved performance, startup time, and enhanced plugin ecosystem. Jared sheds light on the Ember learning team and his background in front-end and back-end development. He reinforces Ember's commitment to offering smooth upgrade paths for applications over the years, giving developers a sense of security and longevity.

In this episode, Jared and Preston talk to Robbie and Chuck about the upcoming release of Ember Polaris and its compatibility with Vite, the unique reactivity primitives of Ember, and how changes can modernize the Ember framework while ensuring long-term app stability.

Key Takeaways

  • [00:29] - Intro to Jared and Preston.
  • [02:32] - A whiskey review: Willett Straight Rye Whiskey.
  • [14:50] - Tech hot takes.
  • [25:25] - Jared and Preston’s favorite programming language.
  • [27:29] - New developments in Ember, including Polaris.
  • [39:44] - A whiskey review: Four Roses Single Barrel.
  • [46:45] - Preston’s opinion on Glimmer.
  • [56:26] - Chuck, Robbie, Preston, and Jared discuss gaming.


[18:58] - “One thing that I’ve appreciated about Tailwind is that it has done a better job of teaching people actually CSS than where people go to learn CSS.” ~ Preston Sego

[30:07] - “It’s exciting to see Ember moving towards being able to use standardized build systems that are used widely throughout Javascript.” ~ Jared Galanis

[52:34] - “People in the React ecosystem are perfectly fine with half-baked things and are willing to try an idea and run with it in their production code.” ~ Preston Sego


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[00:00:05] Robbie: What's going on everybody? Welcome to another Whiskey Web and Whatnot. Another live one from the Multnomah Whiskey Library with... Several Ember friends from EmberConf and your host as normal, Robbie, the Wagner and Chuck

[00:00:18] Chuck: Charles William Carpenter the third.

[00:00:22] Robbie: Yeah. So we have a couple guests from Ember core teams. We have Jared and uh, do you wanna be Preston or you wanna be Nuva or

[00:00:29] Preston: I'm, I'm both. And also the third.

[00:00:32] Robbie: I know, I remember that. Yeah. last time, yes. Yeah.

[00:00:36] Chuck: two trays on, up on this one. Also, does Jared have a last name?

[00:00:40] Jared: Um, Galanis.

[00:00:42] Preston: no.

[00:00:42] Robbie: I don't think so.

[00:00:43] Chuck: Golonoff. He,

[00:00:45] Robbie: He's known as Jared and he has that little pixelated picture.

[00:00:48] Chuck: Yeah, but, but he has

[00:00:49] Robbie: Or No, I guess it is your full name for the

[00:00:51] Jared: Yeah,

[00:00:52] Chuck: And he's never been on a subway commercial. I think we should differentiate. Like, that's,

[00:00:56] Robbie: we don't know that

[00:00:57] Chuck: you want to

[00:00:57] Robbie: Yeah, that's not the guy.

[00:00:59] Preston: who has been on us.

[00:01:00] Chuck: Netflix documentary

[00:01:01] Jared: Yeah, that's

[00:01:02] Robbie: Oh, I didn't know there was one.

[00:01:03] Chuck: Oh, I see. And now you know how important it is to make the distinction. Yeah.

[00:01:08] Robbie: Anyway, um. Introduce yourselves, I guess, say things about what you do.

[00:01:12] Jared: Yeah. So, Jared, I am on the Ember learning team. Uh, mostly front end dev with some back end experience in, uh, Rails and other languages. a fucking job

interview. uh,

[00:01:25] Preston: job interview. Uh, yeah, so I'm known on the internet as NullVoxPopuli. And I am on the Ember Tooling team, which is a new addition as of a couple months ago. And my

[00:01:37] Chuck: named,

[00:01:37] Jared: Yeah,

And early

[00:01:38] Preston: named! Yeah, and newly named! Yeah, yeah, uh, There will be a merger happening, announced, uh, tomorrow, I think.

[00:01:48] Robbie: Yeah. Or when you're hearing this many weeks

[00:01:50] Jared: Probably in the

[00:01:50] Chuck: gonna say.

[00:01:51] Jared: It's

[00:01:52] Chuck: a misnomer that this is labeled as a live show, because it comes out two weeks from now.

[00:01:57] Robbie: It's live and that the guests are here with us. Not that You're hearing it live.

[00:02:01] Jared: Yeah,

[00:02:01] Chuck: the in person thing. We'll work with our marketing department on that.

[00:02:04] Jared: Yeah.

[00:02:05] Preston: Yeah, I, uh, also have done full stack stuff. I like to dabble in all of the front end. It's good to be informed, you know?

[00:02:13] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:02:13] Preston: Gotta,

[00:02:14] Jared: you know.

[00:02:15] Preston: know what we're up against.

[00:02:16] Chuck: what? You're up

[00:02:17] Robbie: We're up against a lot. Yeah.

[00:02:19] Chuck: versus them. Wait until Analog comes out. You're fucked. No, I'm just kidding.

[00:02:23] Jared: I'm

[00:02:24] Whiskey intro

[00:02:24] Chuck: it. Alright, should we talk about whiskey? Yeah,

[00:02:27] Robbie: Tell us about the whiskey,

[00:02:28] Chuck: Well, dear listener, today we're having the Willett, Uh, straight rye whiskey. It is their own distillate. It is the three year. 110 proof. Um, yeah, that's all I gotta say about it. We don't know anything about mash bills. 'cause when we do quote unquote live shows, we don't look it up.


[00:02:45] Robbie: rye. Right?

[00:02:46] Chuck: Uh, yeah, I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. Especially I knew, well sometimes it's like, isn't there sometimes like a different variance of rye or like some of this, some of that,

[00:02:56] Robbie: like a, an heirloom rye.

I do remember

[00:02:58] Chuck: Right? Yeah. Those, those were different. I don't know. Fuck it.

Ooh, it's got kind of a sweet smell to me. Now, I have had this, but I haven't actually, we haven't had it on the show, and definitely haven't tried to think about it in a, uh, descriptive way. Yeah,

[00:03:13] Robbie: I don't know if it's just me getting ready to be back in the room and have some donuts, but it kind of smells like donuts to me.

[00:03:18] Chuck: Oh, see, I get more of a floral.

[00:03:20] Robbie: Yeah, I

[00:03:21] Jared: I think,

[00:03:21] Preston: I think I would agree more. Floral and donuts.

But I

[00:03:26] Robbie: though.

[00:03:26] Jared: floral and donuts. But

I think throughout the night,

[00:03:28] Preston: I

[00:03:28] Chuck: So close,

[00:03:29] Preston: I think I

finally know what rice smells

[00:03:31] Jared: smells like.

[00:03:32] Preston: a, I'm not a whiskey person. But, I think, I think I'm correlating smells to, to

[00:03:37] Chuck: Yeah. And that's really all it is. You just try to find things that seem familiar, associated with what you're getting here. Because obviously none of that shit is in here, right?

There's no RC Cola in a whiskey. There's no flowers added to, you know, the, to the mash bill at all. And,

[00:03:53] Jared: Yeah, I'm definitely closer to, uh, Robbie. I think, I think I smell caramel in here a little bit.

[00:03:58] Robbie: I'm like a lot of sweetness.

[00:04:00] Jared: Yeah.

[00:04:00] Preston: Alright,

[00:04:00] Chuck: Alright, well I'm gonna give it a little taste.

[00:04:02] Robbie: a little taste. This doesn't

[00:04:04] Preston: I like that this doesn't, um, aggressively attack the throat.

[00:04:07] Jared: attack the

throat. It's usually

[00:04:10] Chuck: usually like some heat in the high alcohol, and for 110, if you're not getting like a ton of the quote unquote hug, so it's just a thing, the Kentucky hug is a little burn in your throat.

[00:04:21] Robbie: the case

[00:04:22] Jared: That got vegetal for me, tasting it. It, like, flipped from, from the smell.

[00:04:26] Chuck: Yeah, well yeah, that's, so often that is the case that you get pick up notes in the smell and then you get nothing of that on the palate. Um, you said vegetal,

[00:04:38] Jared: Yeah.

[00:04:39] Chuck: And I started thinking about broccoli and now I have a slight like broccoli stem kind of flavor in my, so I

[00:04:45] Jared: so I think not the build tool.

[00:04:47] Chuck: No, no. Is that even still fucking alive?

Like, what?

[00:04:50] Preston: Uh, we're working on getting rid of it.

[00:04:52] Jared: the moment.

[00:04:52] Chuck: Yeah, you're the last one. Well, we didn't build Broccoli. Let's set the

[00:04:55] Robbie: set the record straight here We just picked

the wrong thing at the time.

Yeah, but

there wasn't a better


[00:05:01] Jared: Well, I think

[00:05:02] Preston: At the

[00:05:04] Jared: a little rough.

like it was.

[00:05:06] Chuck: It was

[00:05:07] Jared: kind of supposed to be the React of

[00:05:09] Preston: time.

[00:05:10] Jared: the

[00:05:12] Chuck: Lack

[00:05:12] Preston: wasn't a better I guess is subjective.

[00:05:15] Talking about adoption of tools

[00:05:15] Chuck: It's an interesting thing that happens sometimes. Adoption isn't always based purely on, better. And better, I guess, is subjective, so I'm gonna take, like, subjectivity out of it. It's just like, solving a particular problem in a way that is more efficient. If efficiency is your goal, right?

Like, that's not always the thing. Because I think, objectively, a lot of people can say, There's lots of different times where react wasn't necessarily the better choice, but it was chosen for reasons outside of like technical feasibility and more about, um, skill scoping on a team or ability to hire into a team or.

Um, having applied it one place, just apply it to the other place because, you know, we already went down that path. Why would you think about something else? Um, we had a decent amount of that at National Geographic. Like, well, we came from a backbone, Marionette Applications, and then I deployed the first React component, logon, login, you know, you had like, uh, Uh, Django site serving up stuff, and then it would load React, and then it would be reactive to logging on, and that, okay, that's pretty cool, that's in a whole application.

[00:06:22] Robbie: it was intended to be? Right.

[00:06:24] Jared: We

had Angular


[00:06:26] Chuck: and desperately tried to remove ourselves from

[00:06:29] Preston: just ended up being

[00:06:30] Chuck: uh, yeah, uh, Angular 2 just ended up being like, it's a new thing, and if it's a new thing, is it still this thing?

[00:06:36] Robbie: There was a lot more money in Angular 1.

There were a lot of dollar signs there.

[00:06:40] Preston: Angular there. Oh,

[00:06:41] Jared: Angular

[00:06:41] Robbie: ha ha ha. Ah.

[00:06:42] Preston: wrong.

[00:06:43] Robbie: Ha ha ha ha. Anyway, um, we should probably go back to rating this whiskey

[00:06:48] Chuck: Oh right,

[00:06:48] Jared: yes.

[00:06:49] Robbie: far down

[00:06:49] Chuck: talking about technology.

[00:06:50] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:06:51] Preston: jumping ahead.

[00:06:51] Chuck: I love technology. Preston was telling me he likes my singing

[00:06:56] Robbie: past

two of these, that they've all been at the same place, and we are mini whiskeys in at this point,

so Right. All

formalities out


[00:07:03] Chuck: That's definitely the reason why I started singing. Yeah, I don't usually do that on

[00:07:07] Robbie: Hey, this is, this will be karaoke night.

[00:07:09] Preston: Ooh.

[00:07:09] Chuck: Let's

[00:07:10] Robbie: Yeah. ,Let's

[00:07:11] Chuck: a pin in that. We'll take that one offline.

[00:07:14] Whiskey rating

[00:07:14] Robbie: Yeah. Anyway, so, um, yeah. Who sh how do we start

[00:07:18] Chuck: this? Uh, I would like to invite one Yeah, I would invite at least one of our guests to rate first.

Uh, so guys, I know you've heard this spiel more than once this evening, but I'm gonna go ahead and give it for dear listener, which is, uh, we use a tentacle rating system, a one through eight tentacles, because we follow the way of the octopus. One being horrible, uh, although I've allowed a few listeners to add a zero, because we are coders, you know, whatever.

Zero based indexing, zero to eight. That's a sad octopus, but zero is horrible, and you're gonna go and vomit to get this out of your system. Eight being amazing, this is the thing that you will drink that, uh, gets you drunk, and is alcohol with other adults, don't give this to children. Uh, four being just fine, it's like

[00:08:04] Jared: middle of

[00:08:04] Robbie: of

[00:08:04] Chuck: the


[00:08:05] Jared: Yeah, I think so. I've, I've had this whiskey before, this rye before, so it's, it's a little bit of a cheat, but, um, and I enjoy it, so I, I, I go into it, you know, it, knowing that it's definitely, I think it's definitely a six or a seven for me.


[00:08:22] Preston: Yeah. Nice. What,

[00:08:23] Jared: this

[00:08:23] Chuck: a 6 or a 7 for me. Okay. Yeah.

[00:08:26] Jared: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it stacks up to some of the other ones we've talked about in the past, like Sagamore.


[00:08:32] Chuck: like Sagamore.

[00:08:35] Preston: Yeah, so I am not a whiskey person and most of the whiskey I've had throughout my whole life I think was tonight and

[00:08:45] Jared: a whiskey person, and most of the whiskey I think, was tonight. And, um, We're winning. We're corrupting Preston.

[00:08:48] Preston: Yeah,

[00:08:50] Jared: Yeah. So.

[00:08:51] Robbie: Ten times more whiskey today than

the rest of his life.

[00:08:55] Preston: Throughout

Uh, all of the whiskies I've

had today and then

the whiskey I had

last time

I was on the show I think I would I think I would

I would also rank

this a six.

Like, I, I would have it again. Um, it isn't, like I mentioned that it doesn't burn a whole lot in my throat. And that's, that's not a feeling I enjoy the

throat burn. So I like that it's a little more subtle. and the, the flavor I think is kind of like okay. So, that's why I'm not like giving it greater rating.

But, but yeah. Yeah, I'd have it again.

[00:09:32] Chuck: it's gotta taste good. I mean, otherwise, that would be, uh, just, um, I don't know, masochistic, but.

[00:09:38] Preston: Yeah, yeah, like Starbucks.

[00:09:41] Jared: Starbucks.


[00:09:42] Chuck: I

[00:09:43] Jared: agree.

[00:09:43] Chuck: Hard agree there. Yeah. Um, yeah, there you go.

[00:09:47] Robbie: go.

[00:09:48] Jared: I,

[00:09:49] Chuck: uh, I'd like, will it quite a bit? Um, there's not a lot of things they do wrong. I mean, obviously some better than others for me personally. Um, yeah, I love when they first came out with this rye of their own distillate and they were labeling labeling in a two year and it was definitely punching above their weight.

Yeah. Uh, I think as each, uh, edition comes out when they do three and four years, it just kind of gets better and better for me. This has some robust, like, citrusy bits to it, kind of some, like, leafy bits, a little floral, and, uh, and has some of the spice that we look for in a rye. Like, if I want, if I'm grabbing a rye, I want it to taste like a rye, otherwise I'll pick a different kind of thing.

so for me, like, this is a strong seven. This is a good seven. I don't know. I think it's because we're always afraid to pick eights. Like, I love this. I get it all the time.

[00:10:39] Jared: Yeah, you have to leave some room.

[00:10:41] Chuck: I'm, a little annoyed as the price keeps going up and up. Like, I know I used to get this regularly for like 45, 50 bucks and now it seems like it's 75, 80 a bottle.

God knows what we've paid

[00:10:53] Robbie: bucks

for this.

[00:10:54] Chuck: the two ounce pour. Exactly. So it's like, uh, you know.

[00:10:58] Jared: People


[00:10:58] Preston: it's good.

[00:10:59] Chuck: but yeah. And, and it keeps, there's a lot of demand and it keeps happening. And good for them. You know, I wish them success. I hate people who will buy like eight bottles of this and sit it in a bunker in the fucking basement.

But outside of that, like,

[00:11:12] Preston: know, doomsday prepping.

[00:11:13] Jared: yeah,

[00:11:14] Chuck: doomsday prepping with alcohol. So what are you gonna just drink yourself

[00:11:17] Jared: to death? Like, good,

[00:11:18] Chuck: good luck. I'm gonna stab you and take your whiskey. So, um, yeah. It's

[00:11:22] Robbie: that they buy them all

up. '

Yeah. cause

then one

person just has to be overcome and you take their whiskey.

[00:11:26] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:11:27] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:11:27] Chuck: good point.

So anyway, uh, Solid 7 for me.

[00:11:31] Jared: Yeah.

[00:11:32] Robbie: Uh, for me, I think it has a lot of the same classic notes we do like from Sagamore and it just feels like a rye, like it's, it's very, standard's not the right word.

'cause it's like good, it's not like,

[00:11:43] Chuck: middle of the road.

[00:11:44] Robbie: But, um, it hits all the notes. It's, uh, I think, I think we rate the sagamores around a seven though. So with that in mind, I'm going to have to say like six and a half. Like,

[00:11:52] Chuck: Just because Sagamore

[00:11:53] Robbie: sagamore is the gold standard. I will not rate



[00:11:56] Chuck: it. Just give it an eight then like

[00:11:58] Jared: this

[00:11:58] Robbie: Or sagamore?

[00:11:58] Chuck: saga, no, give Sagamore an eight.

[00:12:00] Robbie: we should retroactively, or, or try some other

sagamores and give them eights. and

then I can start

giving these sevens. But without a, yeah, around a 6. 5 or 7, yeah. It's

[00:12:09] Chuck: pretty damn good.

[00:12:09] Robbie: Yeah, it's pretty good. It's

[00:12:11] Chuck: whiskey.

[00:12:11] Jared: whiskey.

[00:12:12] Robbie: Yeah. It's

[00:12:12] Jared: They

[00:12:12] Chuck: like whiskey, and I don't know why I'm like, not so much as I can make this whiskey in my backyard and all that.

[00:12:17] Robbie: Yeah. Well, I actually have a lot of distilling equipment, but I haven't

ever used it.

[00:12:21] Chuck: it. Yeah, there's some whatnot for you.

[00:12:23] Robbie: Yep.

[00:12:24] Chuck: don't want to break the law, and I say, let's break it.

[00:12:27] Preston: Wait. What law?

[00:12:29] Robbie: you can't,

like making.

whiskey is a felony.

[00:12:33] Jared: What? It's bootlegging.

[00:12:34] Chuck: But it's called bootlegging.

[00:12:35] Robbie: you can make as much wine and beer as you want. But they're afraid that you'll blow yourself up or like,


[00:12:40] Jared: the poisonous

[00:12:41] Robbie: part of the uh, like, distillate.

[00:12:43] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. Which

[00:12:45] Robbie: I get. Like, I

[00:12:46] Chuck: Listen, you could be the Kennedys. The Kennedys built their dynasty on bootlegging whiskey during prohibition.

[00:12:53] Jared: that right? Have

[00:12:54] Preston: High? No. So, it's not a kid's cartoon, but

[00:12:57] Chuck: No.

[00:12:58] Preston: automatically disqualifies it, I think 80%

[00:12:59] Jared: not a kid's cartoon, but...

[00:13:01] Chuck: Oh, well that automatically disqualifies it. Like, 80% of my TV time is...

Yeah, Paw Patrol.

[00:13:07] Jared: of my TV.

[00:13:07] Chuck: Paw Patrol.

[00:13:08] Preston: The whole concept is that, like, I think these scientists

re uh, created Important people throughout history through cloning and they remade the Kennedys and there's this like recurring phrase throughout the show where it's just like, nothing bad ever happens to the Kennedys, because they don't know.

[00:13:27] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:13:29] Jared: they don't know. Oh my goodness.

[00:13:30] Robbie: happens. Yeah.

[00:13:31] Chuck: Everything bad happens.

[00:13:32] Jared: That's true.

[00:13:32] Chuck: They're young

[00:13:33] Robbie: yeah,

[00:13:33] Preston: and naive.

[00:13:34] Chuck: Yeah, that's funny.


[00:13:37] Robbie: all of

the illegal things they've done is why a lot of them have bad

[00:13:40] Chuck: I guess it could be, yeah. I mean, their involvement with the mafia, like all kinds of things.

[00:13:46] Jared: Uh,

[00:13:46] Chuck: Is this like, uh, drunk history?

[00:13:49] Jared: It has turned. It has turned into that, yeah.

[00:13:52] Chuck: Okay. Anyway, let's stick

[00:13:53] Robbie: Ember

talk. We

[00:13:54] Jared: We're not here for

[00:13:55] Robbie: We

[00:13:55] Chuck: not? Yeah. We're just gonna skip. Wait, uh, well, I mean, that is history too, isn't it? No.

[00:14:00] Jared: Oh! Boo.

[00:14:02] Preston: No, no, no, no,



no, no. Ember's the underdog.

[00:14:06] Robbie: it

[00:14:06] Jared: Perpetual. That was the underdog that's

[00:14:08] Chuck: been around like al, like the, almost the longest?

[00:14:11] Preston: Uh,


[00:14:12] Robbie: it's always been second to like, like, when angular was really popular, it was second. Most

popular, right? We lacking

[00:14:20] Preston: made Ember the underdog and then react came out and then everyone was like, Hey, I only have one concept to learn. This is great.

And, uh, but I think we're going to make,


at least going to get on people's radar. That's the goal

[00:14:37] Jared: Yeah.

for me


[00:14:38] Inferred types vs explicit

[00:14:38] Chuck: I think that I

[00:14:38] Preston: my personal

[00:14:39] Chuck: okay, so at least for me personally, that's like one of the key items that I think I think okay Let's do some hot takes because you guys deserve hot takes and I don't want to steal that from

[00:14:49] Preston: got, I got

[00:14:49] Chuck: You've been waiting in a hot seat

[00:14:52] Jared: for a while

[00:14:53] Robbie: I don't think that we were doing hot takes yet when we did your first

episode. So, so yeah, we'll just start from the top for both of you can answer, I guess.

Um, uh, inferred types or explicit

[00:15:04] Chuck: types

[00:15:05] Jared: types? For me, I have to go with explicit. I don't like to, I know it like, creates a lot of boilerplate, but I also don't like to try to, you know, sit and stare too hard and, and figure out what, you know, what the code is doing. I'd rather just have it explicitly typed and be able to read it pretty


[00:15:23] Chuck: typed and be able to read

[00:15:24] Preston: pretty clearly. Okay. Alright, yeah.

Um, for me, so my primary, as a

[00:15:30] Jared: a TypeScript author

[00:15:32] Preston: author is that of a library developer. So for that, I like, Explicit types around the public API boundary.

Because that, that keeps me honest. That allows me to, um, manage SemVer where TypeScript, the language, does not adhere to SemVer.

[00:15:50] Robbie: not hmm. Um,

[00:15:51] Preston: but for apps, I think implicit types can be very powerful because you get all the IntelliSense benefits, you get, the inline docs in your editor, Though in, in apps, you know, a lot of apps have like a utils directory, that is like, kind of like a library sort of thing, so then you could still just like choose to do explicit types around those boundaries as well.

guess in short, depends on use case.

[00:16:18] Chuck: guess, in short, it, depends.

[00:16:20] Robbie: Yeah. And we hear that a lot from like people writing libraries is like, you want to be for sure that the thing I'm shipping to the user works the way

[00:16:27] Preston: mm-hmm. wanted

[00:16:28] Robbie: it to work.

I don't want it to get inferred wrong or whatever. So, yeah, that makes sense.

[00:16:34] Preston: Yeah. Also, SemVer ts.org, if you wanna see how TypeScript and SemVer work together. Hmm.

[00:16:39] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:16:40] Jared: interesting.

[00:16:40] Robbie: don't they just not do anything at all with SIM

[00:16:44] Preston: Well, TypeScript the language doesn't, but as a library author, you can opt into a way of managing your public types with semantic versioning. So that as TypeScript the language tries to break your stuff, you can widen your types on your public type boundaries and

kind of ease the upgrade path for your consumers.

[00:17:07] Tailwind vs Vanilla CSS

[00:17:07] Chuck: on the upgrade path for your consumers.

[00:17:13] Preston: Okay, I So again, it depends

[00:17:18] Robbie: it depends.

[00:17:19] Preston: So,


[00:17:20] Robbie: one.

[00:17:21] Preston: okay, so,

[00:17:22] Jared: Pick a side. The revolution is coming.

[00:17:25] Preston: have


design system, Tailwind, because Tailwind is, uh, forced design system tokens. You are not allowed to stray from how the team that implements the design system has decided it needs to work. So, that could mean that you use Tailwind's default sizing scale of 25 rem.

Or it could mean something else, it could mean you only have specific colors, like some design systems don't have, the entire range of Tailwind's default colors, and that's quite a lot. but if you're just doing a little project, uh, by yourself on the side, sometimes

[00:18:04] Jared: it could

[00:18:04] Preston: you may even forego the CSS file.

And just do inline C

[00:18:08] Jared: Whoa,

[00:18:09] Chuck: ho, ho, ho, ho, hot

[00:18:11] Robbie: Mmm. Nice take.

Yeah. What is this? 1995?

[00:18:14] Preston: Oh yeah. I

[00:18:15] Jared: I guess

[00:18:15] Robbie: wasn't out

[00:18:16] Chuck: then.

[00:18:16] Jared: 97? 97?


[00:18:20] Chuck: wait, are you also doing your layouts and tables on your own project?

[00:18:23] Robbie: Or Slack's

[00:18:24] Jared: own project?

[00:18:24] Preston: no, no. GR grid and flex all the


[00:18:26] Jared: you go. Or

[00:18:28] Robbie: Yeah. Or tables, display grid. Even worse.

[00:18:31] Preston: nested. grid.

[00:18:33] Robbie: Jared?

[00:18:33] Chuck: I'm

[00:18:34] Jared: I'm a big

Tailwind fan, so for me it's pretty, pretty strongly in favor of Tailwind most of the time. I definitely appreciate not having a context switch when I'm trying to write that CSS or the utility classes, and I think it just improves productivity for me all around, so.


[00:18:51] Preston: that


is that it has,

[00:18:54] Jared: that it

[00:18:55] Preston: has done a better job of teaching people actual CSS than where people go to learn c s s. Yeah, because the Tailwind

[00:19:04] Chuck: It ain't CSS tricks anymore.

[00:19:06] Robbie: Yeah, I

got a lot of that on I I did the the whole clickbait like say something nice about this with tail end and Everyone was like I've learned a ton of actual CSS from this instead of going to like MDN or whatever It's like I'm learning it here and I'm like that is great.

Like, you know, you get the best of both worlds.

[00:19:22] Preston: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[00:19:24] Rebase vs Merge

[00:19:24] Robbie: get rebase or get merge.

[00:19:28] Preston: What are we doing? Yeah. It depends.

[00:19:31] Chuck: Right,

[00:19:32] Jared: It depends.

[00:19:32] Preston: so on

my future work, I always rebase. even if someone ahead of me has totally screwed up the files I'm working on, I'll rebase. And if it's so bad, I'll just look at my PR, see what the diff is. Choose the upstream copy of the file, and then copy my changes back in.

It's just like, I

[00:19:54] Jared: I

[00:19:54] Preston: cannot handle how merge into my feature branch makes my own git history. Like, I just, I just can't figure it

out. So,

[00:20:04] Chuck: it either. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:20:06] Jared: for me, I can't remember the last time I actually did a merge. It's almost always rebase. And I'm the same way. If I have to, I'll just copy the changes back in. If there's too many commits or

things are just too cluttered, it's, yeah.

[00:20:20] Preston: But if it's going into main, I, I don't think I care.

[00:20:24] Chuck: Well,

[00:20:24] Jared: you do get that

[00:20:25] Robbie: I don't think I care. I do like the merged commit. Because it's easier to revert.

[00:20:29] Chuck: it.

[00:20:30] Preston: do like the

[00:20:31] Jared: my big pet peeve

[00:20:31] Preston: commit because it's, it's easier to revert.

[00:20:33] Jared: Yeah.

[00:20:34] Chuck: but if you've done these rebases and you have short running things, then if you want to revert things, you can actually like cherry pick shit out, and then

[00:20:43] Robbie: or if you've squashed, then you just have the same one commit, I guess, so, yeah.

[00:20:48] Preston: yeah.

[00:20:48] Robbie: It all


[00:20:49] Chuck: It

[00:20:50] Preston: append

[00:20:50] Jared: depends.

[00:20:51] Chuck: I think, I think what, it does depend, and I think I would append the question and just say, in an idealized world, which one would you pick? Because obviously we all have like, oh I'm doing my little thing, and I'm just gonna take the lazy way, because nobody cares, because I'm doing this thing.

But ideally, I'm working professionally, like, this is what I do. So, I could see that. Oh wow, we're already there. Okay.

[00:21:16] Robbie: The best


[00:21:18] Chuck: hay.

[00:21:18] Robbie: Lay

it on him.

[00:21:19] Preston: What is it?

[00:21:21] Jared: Jared,

[00:21:22] What do we think of milk types?

[00:21:22] Chuck: what do you think about milk?

[00:21:24] Preston: Milk?

[00:21:25] Jared: milk?


[00:21:26] Robbie: Yeah, how do you feel

[00:21:27] Chuck: about it? Milky?

[00:21:28] Jared: Pretty neutral on it. Really. Yeah.

[00:21:31] Chuck: Pretty basic on it. Yeah.

[00:21:32] Jared: on it? I don't know. I mean... I feel like there's, there's something behind this question that I'm not really

understanding. , there's

[00:21:38] Chuck: a whole, have you

[00:21:39] Robbie: you not

seen all the milk on

[00:21:40] Chuck: There's a whole revolution

[00:21:42] Preston: hmm.

[00:21:43] Chuck: I mean, if you haven't seen Primo's, uh, post where he's water skiing,

[00:21:49] Jared: I have seen


[00:21:50] Chuck: Okay. He won milk. I mean, I don't know, you know what I think about milk? Whatever he tells me. He's definitely,

[00:21:56] Jared: he's the

[00:21:56] Preston: milk man. He

uses NeoVim, so I, I agree with him for everything. I know.

[00:22:00] Jared: There we go. Although he recently walked back his, uh, stance on Dvorack,

[00:22:05] Robbie: He's like, I, he's like, I could've just learned, like done the like split keyboard, uh, Kinesis or whatever, but kept it cordy and been just as productive.

[00:22:15] Preston: Oh, I,

okay, no.

[00:22:17] Jared: he, so


[00:22:18] Preston: cannot

agree with him on anything.


[00:22:20] Robbie: So you don't

[00:22:21] Chuck: on anything. You already

[00:22:22] Jared: Oh, wow.

[00:22:22] Chuck: everything. You've

[00:22:23] Jared: You walked it back

[00:22:24] Robbie: You

you can't really have milk, right?

[00:22:25] Preston: Yeah, no, no, I, I can't have dairy at all.

[00:22:28] Jared: Milk substitute

[00:22:29] Chuck: Is, is your feeling about

[00:22:30] Robbie: almond milk or,

[00:22:31] Chuck: well, no, don't call it almond milk. It's not fucking milk

[00:22:34] Robbie: almond beverage. It's

[00:22:35] Chuck: nuts. Sat in water

[00:22:36] Preston: almond milk an almond, but The,

the, it's just too small.

Uh, cashew milk is,

is where it's at

for like nut milk. Right. But it, it has a high fat content, which is what people are really

after in

[00:22:51] Chuck: yeah. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. I, I don't think those beverages are, are, uh, Like, taste bad, but I think they're good.

[00:22:58] Robbie: You just don't want to call them milk.

[00:22:59] Chuck: Yeah, don't, don't, yeah, don't call them milk. It's like, okay, so again, Dietary choices aside, maybe those are gonna get whatever. But like, when people will get, like impossible burgers. And they're like, I want a burger. And you're like, it's not though, it's not meat.

It's just other stuff that like, looks like

[00:23:16] Preston: Supporting science.

[00:23:17] Robbie: you have a veggie burger or a black bean burger, they're

still burgers. it's like the act of making it a patty. makes it

[00:23:23] Preston: a you know,

[00:23:24] Chuck: You know what it is? First of all, it's a burger sandwich. Um,

[00:23:27] Jared: bread sandwich.

[00:23:28] Chuck: bread sandwich. Yes. It's another kind of sandwich. Hot dog sandwich. ,

[00:23:32] Robbie: right?

[00:23:32] Chuck: Yeah. Uh,

[00:23:33] Jared: no,

[00:23:33] Preston: tacos.

The box model,

[00:23:36] Chuck: Oh my gosh.

[00:23:37] Preston: that's

[00:23:38] Chuck: well, a taco requires a wrapping and a tortilla, for sure. So a hot dog can't be a taco, because it's a bread thing.

[00:23:47] Preston: So, taco has an opening on the top.

[00:23:49] Chuck: Taco has an

[00:23:50] Preston: I

[00:23:51] Jared: a convertible car

[00:23:52] Chuck: has an opening on the top.

Is that a taco?

[00:23:54] Jared: Yes. eat it.

A taco

[00:23:55] Robbie: Yes. Eat it. Taco

[00:23:56] Chuck: Taco car. Oh man. We're gonna have to do a whole other episode again, like, Round 5 or 6 or wherever we're at now is gonna be just about tacos. Definition of food things. Sandwiches,

[00:24:09] Robbie: I guess a taco could also be a sandwich. The bread's kind of different, but it's bread like.

[00:24:15] Chuck: I don't know.

Now you're getting to like

[00:24:17] Robbie: If it's a thing made of flour and it encases the thing you're eating,

[00:24:21] Chuck: Uh, well if you get a flour tortilla, well what if you get a corn tortilla? Then it doesn't count anymore. Well then it's just a taco. So the definition is no flour, and then it gets

[00:24:30] Robbie: don't know, I'm just, I'm just saying


[00:24:32] Preston: it gets together. I'm just, I'm just saying.

[00:24:33] Chuck: Alright, you should move on to the next question I

[00:24:35] Robbie: going to skip this one because this is a stupid question. What? But, it's the whole one that we asked

Jason about. Were you surprised that

we didn't win front end feud? No, no one

knows we were on.

[00:24:44] Preston: Oh.

[00:24:46] Jared: So

[00:24:46] Chuck: apparently they did a bad job marketing

[00:24:48] Preston: that. Yeah, I had no idea front end feud was even a thing.

[00:24:51] Jared: Yeah,

[00:24:51] Robbie: No that watch

[00:24:52] Chuck: not even,

[00:24:52] Jared: like

the people that watch,

[00:24:54] Robbie: or listen to JS Party or both. Uh, you know, religiously, know that it happened, but

[00:24:59] Jared: like,

[00:25:00] Robbie: everyone else

has no

[00:25:02] Chuck: Well, you apparently didn't share within your network. Because nobody fucking knows.

[00:25:05] Robbie: It hasn't aired


[00:25:08] Jared: It was live!

[00:25:09] Robbie: It was live!

[00:25:10] Jared: It was live!

And I shared!

[00:25:12] Robbie: I

retweeted the live

[00:25:13] Chuck: You suck at this.

[00:25:14] Robbie: I retweeted the live thing. I did it. I did my


[00:25:16] Chuck: Mmm. Mmm.

[00:25:18] AD SPOT

[00:25:18] Jared: Alright,

[00:25:19] Chuck: ask the next question

[00:25:20] What is your least favorite programming language?

[00:25:20] Robbie: Um, yeah, what is your least favorite programming language?

[00:25:23] Jared: Ooh.

[00:25:23] Preston: Okay, I've been thinking about this all night, and

[00:25:26] Jared: I knew

it was

[00:25:26] Preston: been, it has been so


It's an esoteric

[00:25:29] Chuck: uh, one that no

[00:25:31] Robbie: not like AGL,

[00:25:32] Chuck: A T

[00:25:32] Jared: It's not that hard for me.

[00:25:34] Preston: UK. Yeah, what is it for you?

So it's not,

[00:25:37] Jared: So it's not, it's not even really an indictment of the language itself, but PHP trying to have any sort of, like, decent REPL experience and, like, debugging in it

has been terrible


my experience, so. I actually don't mind the language otherwise, but that's, it's been one of the


frustrating languages to work in because of that for


[00:25:55] Robbie: Okay.

[00:25:55] Chuck: in. Okay. Okay. Yeah.

[00:25:57] Preston: Otherwise, but that's, it's been kind of stuck between deciding between two and that is C or Python.

[00:26:04] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:26:04] Jared: Whoa. Yeah. Really? I enjoyed Python. Yeah, so See,

[00:26:08] Robbie: I hate

Python so much that I forget it exists. And even answering that

[00:26:13] Chuck: brackets.

Based completely on brackets.

[00:26:15] Robbie: completely

[00:26:15] Jared: on brackets,

It's, You know?

[00:26:17] Robbie: and snake case

hate 'em both.

[00:26:18] Preston: Well, it's just like Python is so popular. Everyone uses it, but like it's APIs are so C based.

And then like the way, so I learned Python in college and it was all like, Oh, you can do all this object and class based stuff with it. But after learning F sharp and how F sharp handles the integration with ASP. net and how they kind of like fake. like instances and classes and F sharp to support ASP.

NET, Python felt like a lie.

So, not only do, is Python's APIs too C like, it, it just feels like I've been deceived my whole life. Well,

[00:27:01] Chuck: deceived my whole life.

[00:27:02] Jared: to break it to you. As you,


through this life,

[00:27:05] Robbie: you're gonna find more

[00:27:06] Jared: and more Everything's a lie.


[00:27:08] Preston: going

[00:27:08] Robbie: The cake is a lie. Even

cake. Does anyone get that

[00:27:12] Chuck: No.

[00:27:12] Jared: yeah.

[00:27:13] Preston: was, uh, Portal, yeah.

[00:27:15] Robbie: Yeah. Anyway,

[00:27:16] Preston: it's been a while.

[00:27:17] Jared: while.

[00:27:18] Robbie: Um,

[00:27:19] Chuck: W

[00:27:19] Robbie: yeah. So we are


[00:27:21] Chuck: why I'm the funny one. Yeah.

[00:27:22] What's going on with Ember these days

[00:27:22] Robbie: Yeah. We're not listening to you right now. Um, so we are here for EmberConf. So let's talk about Ember. Polaris is coming out

[00:27:29] Preston: Mm hmm.

[00:27:30] Robbie: tell us about hotness and reasons why we care, like what's going on in Ember these days.

[00:27:35] Preston: Yeah, so Polaris is the named next edition of Ember. And an addition is kind of like the, the missing piece of semantic versioning, where, like, semantic versioning is more concerned about API changes, where you have like bug fixes, features, and like breaking things, but like additions are the whole cohesive story around how you use those different features together, and then can,

Cohesively build your app

in a way that makes sense.


[00:28:13] Jared: like

[00:28:14] Preston: the react world. Maybe this would be, like, moving from class based components to function based components with hooks. If React, uh, well, no, I think React did do that in a non breaking version. They, if they had updated their docs at the same time, instead of waiting three years to update their docs, um, they could have released that as an addition and be like, this is the hooks.

function based version of React. And this is how we want you to write React now. Um, and it's non breaking, so you can, keep your class components and do your, uh, function hook components at the same time. and then gradually migrate. And you don't need to rewrite your app. Um, so that's the whole main focus of addition.

and then for Ember, where that comes in is Ember is trying to get rid of most of its old tooling that it needed from way back in 2010 before any good tooling existed and move towards VEET and, uh, VEET allows us to do a lot of good things. If you're familiar with other ecosystems, it's just like ESM by default.

Um, you can easily get route splitting, um, you have 300 millisecond startup time. It, it's great. It opens up a lot, it's got a good plugin ecosystem, it's great. And that

[00:29:39] Jared: Ember's

[00:29:39] Preston: focus is getting towards that. a lot of the design changes in Ember are based around what is needed to get to that goal.

[00:29:47] Ember moving to Vite

[00:29:47] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. And VT is S tier from the, uh, state of JSS survey. So like it's good people, there are a few things that everyone universally likes and vet is one of them.

So like we're on the right path with that. Yeah.

[00:30:03] Jared: it's exciting to see Ember moving towards just being able to use standardized build systems that are, you know, Used widely throughout Javascript and not having a bespoke build system any longer.


[00:30:16] Preston: thing that excites me about the moving to Vite is in part the story that's really hard to tell, which is that Ember has committed itself to providing upgrade paths for apps that have been around for the past seven years and will exist or are starting just now for the next seven years.

So, like, unlike Angular where people are stuck on each major version, which happens maybe slightly more often,

[00:30:51] Robbie: It's

[00:30:51] Preston: than once a year. Yeah. Oh.

[00:30:53] Jared: 16 now. Or

[00:30:54] Robbie: on Angular 16 now,

[00:30:55] Preston: Yeah. Or

[00:30:57] Jared: and

2, where it was just a wholesale.

[00:30:59] Robbie: Yeah,

that was like the Ember one 13.

[00:31:02] Chuck: Yeah. They've definitely been way better. I remember come circling back around and, and, uh, coming back around version nine and I was like, oh, wow, this is, this feels like something

[00:31:11] Jared: else.

[00:31:12] Preston: And now they're Don't

[00:31:12] Chuck: call it,

[00:31:13] Robbie: usable.

[00:31:13] Chuck: Don't call it Angular anymore, because I think that, you know, turns people off

[00:31:18] Jared: And now

[00:31:18] Preston: they're adopting signals. They're, they're, uh, thinking about getting rid of their attribute based control flow. Which I hate. And it's one of the things I really love about Ember is that it's control flow is block based.

Um, so if you You

[00:31:31] Robbie: thinking about

[00:31:32] Jared: to play.

[00:31:32] Chuck: Ember

[00:31:33] Preston: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:35] Further talk of where Ember is going

[00:31:35] Jared: No worries. But

[00:31:35] Chuck: I think like, okay, so, you're starting to bubble up the excitement and discuss particular things that, uh,

[00:31:42] Robbie: I think

[00:31:43] Jared: that

[00:31:43] Chuck: will address The challenges in the story around Ember that people, uh, I mean, obviously, I don't, it's not, uh, a surprise to anyone at this table, but, like, haven't used it myself in quite some time, uh, not really involved in the ecosystem, don't, you know, no problems with it or whatever else, it's just career directions take you other places, but, um, But when you have those conversations with, with folks who have used or have not used it and just haven't kind of taken a look again, they, they feel like it's antiquated in ways.

And I think like build system is one big thing that is a, you know, bridge too far to regress back into.

[00:32:24] Jared: Having been someone in the Ember

[00:32:27] Chuck: Ecosystem for a while and then kind of out of it and and having those discussions there and I think like there's this This ideal or perception some true some not that it is dated and kind of stuck in a particular zone, which I think works just fine. Like, right, there's, like you've said, you go back seven years and you can have applications that work fine in the, I, the, the point is, is that it meets the business objectives.

So you don't need to shift just because somebody else had a cooler thing they wanted to work on, but I think there's a potential there. So some of the, some of the gates that would stop people would be around like a build system. What else do you think? And this is that. Getting to the question now. What else do you think would, like, help bring this to prevalence, in the decision when people make architecture decisions in a new application?

[00:33:18] Preston: so I think if someone really wants to have their app,

[00:33:25] Robbie: really

[00:33:26] Preston: or know that their app is going to work just fine,

Like, a decade in the


And if they can know there's a, uh, blessed migration path to get from where they left their project to where it will be in ten years.

[00:33:45] Chuck: years.

[00:33:45] Preston: Like, if they can know for certain that

they will not be left in the dark,

is a reason to choose Ember. And...

[00:33:55] Jared: I

[00:33:55] Preston: I think the fact that Ember is moving towards, all these modern things that people are used to and expect shows that the people working on Ember, and I'm not just saying this because I work on Ember, but like, there's a lot of passion I see from other people working on Ember that they care, they

want to meet people where they are at what they expect, so peoplele expect that they can choose Vite because Vite is awesome.

So Ember needs to work with Vite and the fact it hasn't is like, you know, a little unfortunate due to circumstance, partly due to COVID and like, burnout and all that stuff from various people, but like,

it's getting worked on And, that's just really exciting. There's another project coming out of it.

Um, which is a rival to Signals, StarBeam, that is like another thing that can be really good for companies to think about adopting because companies like to mitigate risk and if they can, implement the bulk of their application in a way that is transferable between Ember, React, Svelte, Vue, Preact, you name


that's just like a lot

less, Rewriting, they would have to do worst case scenario.

Now, I'm not betting on the worst case scenario because I want to see Ember succeed. not that I want Ember to be my identity, but I think it


some good qualities that other frameworks maybe don't appreciate. And there are some, Concepts and reactive primitives that I think the other frameworks could learn from and adopt and kind of make

make everyone's ecosystem better overall,

[00:35:39] Jared: from And in some cases already have learned from, you know, some of the,

[00:35:43] Chuck: Well, it definitely has happened in the

past. Absolutely there, right? Like Ember

CLI and forming the Angular CLI, and like, uh, the router, and

[00:35:51] Jared: the... Exactly, routing,

[00:35:52] Chuck: Right. Right.

Well, you know, those are past successes, though, and you can't lean on those forever. I do think it's, uh, I do think the composability play is, good and bad.

I mean, I think

[00:36:05] Jared: that Ember

[00:36:06] Chuck: was

supposed to be the framework where you don't have to think about those

things, right? Like, because

the decisions are made for you across the board. And it's kind of like, I've said it various times around, like, that's what made Next palatable to me, in a similar way, is that a lot of decisions were made for me.

Just follow the right pattern, the happy path.

[00:36:24] Preston: of decisions were

made for

[00:36:25] Jared: the way.

[00:36:25] Chuck: So then, you know, so

[00:36:27] Jared: there's


trade offs


[00:36:28] Chuck: that sense. It's like saying, okay, if you love VEET, great, you come in, familiar tools, you don't have to learn everything over. Um, here's,

oh, signals, you

heard signals are great, we're doing a signal like thing. I know that Yoda is, uh, working on that, across.

You know, there's React support, there's other support there, so that's kind of a nice, like, plus two, is like, oh, we have signals, and if you decide you need to go away, you're not abandoning, it's not all or nothing. It almost feels like it's delivering on the promise that Glimmer had, though.


[00:37:02] Preston: Yeah.

[00:37:03] Chuck: Well, I

don't, I think it was like the last Ember Conf I attended, it was like 3 or 4 years ago,

[00:37:11] Preston: in

[00:37:11] Chuck: like that,

and Glimmer was like all the shit.

I remember Glimmer came out, it must have been longer, because I was still in

DC. Glimmer came out, and it's like this

singular layer. So there you go, you know

[00:37:22] Jared: numbers.

[00:37:23] Robbie: Or, 2019

[00:37:23] Chuck: or no,

[00:37:24] Jared: no.

[00:37:25] Chuck: Nope, I was in DC still because I did a, uh, a meetup talk where I did my slides in glimmer and then talked about


[00:37:33] Robbie: glimmer

And then talked about

Glimmer independently. Yeah,

well you were, you were here the

last time we

were here so I think that was 2019,

[00:37:38] Chuck: so then that's not when glimmer was announced. So that's my

[00:37:40] Robbie: The year before


[00:37:41] Chuck: was,

it was eight 17 or

[00:37:43] Robbie: or 18, So Yeah.


[00:37:44] Chuck: see


you're saying. And, and so here it is, this independent, like draw people in.

[00:37:49] Preston: Yeah.

[00:37:50] Chuck: Ember

is providing you everything, but if you don't want that,

[00:37:53] Preston: mm-hmm.

[00:37:53] Chuck: a window in right? And so that's what I'm wondering


you know, could it


That similar thing like what's a better was their learnings

[00:38:01] Jared: here.

[00:38:02] Chuck: And now do you look at Starbeam

as a starburst?

[00:38:05] Jared: uh, Starburst,

[00:38:06] Chuck: Stargazer,


the thing

that, uh... Stargate SG

1? Yes. Uh,

again, it's another thing.

It's like an entry gateway, possibly, but you've got to take it to fruition. You know, there's some fear around

that. And,

is it too much stepping away from the promise of Ember of just come in, configure it right, do it the Ember way, and happy path forever?

[00:38:26] Jared: I think you still get a lot of all of those things. With all the things that are, you know, on the horizon and being offered today. So I don't, I don't think it's, I don't think it's stepping away too much.

I think you just have more flexibility. You're able to use standardized build systems, which is phenomenal. but you still have, you know, first class testing framework, you still have a data layer, you still have, you know, routing, all of those things that we've known for a while and really appreciate it.

[00:38:53] Robbie: meta frameworks were cool. It did all the things that the metaframeworks do now.

[00:38:59] Chuck: Yeah. Agreed with that. And I, and, and yeah, like first class testing, it's definitely always been huge.

[00:39:05] Robbie: Which still no one has. Like, in Jest, how do I debug it?

I know someone can, but I

can't. Jest should be good. VTest.

[00:39:12] Chuck: V

[00:39:13] Robbie: Yeah, whatever

[00:39:14] Preston: test. So


[00:39:15] Chuck: V test

is so good

and so fast. So you know, some things there. I, I could see, although I think we should take a momentary pause in the serious, um,

have this reemergence

[00:39:26] Preston: yeah.

Sec. Second. Whiskey time.

[00:39:27] Chuck: Ember is the, It's trying to be the Jesus of Javascript, I

think. Right.

[00:39:31] Preston: Oh, that's, that's a claim.

[00:39:34] Chuck: ..Um,



heard it here,

folks. I mean, all three

of you.


[00:39:39] Second whiskey selection

[00:39:39] Chuck: so, we are, again, having a second whiskey.


it's because Robbie has a drinking problem. I

[00:39:46] Robbie: I dunno. Yeah. It's me, not

[00:39:47] Chuck: Yeah, it's not, it's not me. Uh, okay, so, I love this. Coming back to at least a classic for me, personally. I'm sad and ashamed at the whiskey world that this isn't available more often, so this is a Four Roses single barrel, um, barrel strength, and they had come out with, uh, a series of, uh, of whiskeys where they were experimenting with variations in the mash bill, and they gave them these, like, random letter

[00:40:13] Robbie: bits, and

[00:40:14] Chuck: I think this one was OBSF.

I don't recall what that really gets, but I'm, I've smelled it and I am getting, um, a bit of, a bit of spice and a bit of


[00:40:24] Robbie: Well I can tell you what I'm getting and it's very specific. Well

[00:40:27] Jared: Oh

[00:40:27] Chuck: shit,

well wait


second, let me first say, so

[00:40:30] Jared: I can't wait.


[00:40:32] Chuck: 2% alcohol, so it is, it is a hot one. Hot one! As I mentioned, it is barrel strength, so this is just...

How the angels intended it. And I'm going with some sort of religious theme for this show. Uh, apologies. know nothing else about it, but I, you, these, uh, I recall on the menu, these are, uh, nine to ten years, too. So they got a decent age to them. Usually nine is about my max, give or take, from a, from a bourbon.

Otherwise, it just starts to get, like, real spicy, real woody, and just like, bleh. I don't know, I just don't like my bourbons that way,

[00:41:04] Robbie: So if you


of don't put your nose fully in it and you get like a little

sniff, I smell zebra


What is that? Fruit Stripe.


[00:41:14] Preston: you know,

[00:41:15] Jared: Stripe.

Yeah. Oh,

[00:41:15] Chuck: I was like, it wasn't called that, but it had a zebra mascot.

Yeah, Fruit Stripe. And that stuff I thought was so cool, and they had like great marketing, and you could

chew it. The flavor

goes away in three seconds. Yes! Right? Like, I

always felt so


[00:41:26] Robbie: I've ever. Oh


[00:41:28] Chuck: Another


Aww. Mom,

can I get another pack? No.

[00:41:33] Robbie: Yeah.

But it, I get a little hint of that.

Do You


[00:41:35] Chuck: that?

I... I don't even

remember what that shit

tasted like. That's how quickly it went through my life.

[00:41:39] Jared: But my, My

[00:41:41] Robbie: went right


[00:41:42] Chuck: it.

I do get kind of

[00:41:43] Jared: a...

it's very different if you go, it's fy


[00:41:46] Chuck: a... Taffy. I


[00:41:47] Robbie: that's,

similar. Like

[00:41:47] Jared: It's fy.

[00:41:48] Chuck: Yeah.

Like a little bit of sea salt


[00:41:51] Preston: this pick up my smell noises? What? What


[00:41:53] Robbie: taffy?

[00:41:54] Preston: I'm



[00:41:56] Jared: I'm seeing


[00:41:57] Chuck: I'm


reds. I'm

seeing reds. Hold on. Where's the Ouija board take me?

[00:42:01] Preston: My relationship

with Flavornotes is

non existent.

[00:42:05] Robbie: Oh

[00:42:06] Preston: I have a coffee subscription and they provide Flavornotes. And they are ridiculous.

[00:42:10] Chuck: if

[00:42:10] Robbie: But

[00:42:11] Preston: But

[00:42:11] Robbie: if you're


[00:42:13] Chuck: that, just, if you're able to tie those together in some ways, I mean, that makes it just as, uh, just as real and accurate as anything else. It's not like coding. They're,


[00:42:24] Jared: I

find it's

day to day too, like I'll smell something in this one day that I don't

smell the next.


coffee, too

[00:42:30] Preston: that I don't smell the next.

Yeah. maybe

[00:42:32] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:42:32] Chuck: Well. So, Robbie, what do you think flavor wise?

[00:42:36] Robbie: Oh, I haven't tried it yet. I


[00:42:37] Chuck: it.



[00:42:39] Robbie: I was trying to get the video back on, because it was

off. Because my computer went to sleep.

[00:42:43] Preston: Oh, no. this episode is

[00:42:44] Jared: sponsored

[00:42:45] Robbie: by

the Oboz.

[00:42:46] Preston: C1.

[00:42:46] Chuck: camera. Sometimes fucks up and just restarts and doesn't focus at

[00:42:51] Robbie: When you're recording, why the fuck does it go off

[00:42:54] Preston: like

[00:42:54] Chuck: anyway. 6th or

[00:42:57] Preston: this

[00:42:57] Robbie: of expletives.

[00:42:59] Chuck: 7th whiskey? I don't know.

[00:43:01] Preston: Oh, man.

[00:43:02] Robbie: What does it taste like? I don't


[00:43:04] Chuck: know I'm, yeah,

[00:43:05] Robbie: it tastes much different

[00:43:06] Chuck: I get a little chocolate.

I get like, like

[00:43:08] Preston: really?

[00:43:08] Jared: chocolate

[00:43:09] Chuck: though. Yeah, I'm getting a little bitter chocolate and a

[00:43:11] Robbie: finish.

It's very like, heavy.

[00:43:13] Chuck: Mm

[00:43:13] Jared: Interesting.

[00:43:14] Preston: Yeah.

[00:43:14] Chuck: Mm hmm.

[00:43:16] Robbie: like

some. Some really like, like if I chose a cigar, and it was a really bad cigar, like it tastes

[00:43:22] Chuck: that.

Oh, see, I have some coatings. So like a thicker, like if I had like a molasses kind of, but I'm not getting molasses flavors. I got, um, some cinnamon initially. And something in the middle between, and then it kind of just goes to bitter chocolate.


I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'll think about


[00:43:40] Robbie: more. It tastes a lot darker than the smell.

[00:43:43] Jared: than the smell.

[00:43:44] Robbie: um, overall it's pretty good. It's not my favorite. I would,

uh, maybe give it like five and a half.

[00:43:51] Chuck: a half. Okay, so dear listener, as earlier, remember we talked about tentacles. Zero to eight tentacles. And

somehow he is a half tentacle.

[00:44:00] Jared: tentacle.


[00:44:02] Preston: Maybe give it, is a rating. And it is... Less generous.

[00:44:07] Jared: Nice!

[00:44:07] Preston: Three out of

[00:44:08] Jared: 8. Wow, okay.

[00:44:10] Preston: I, I

think I would avoid this in the future.

[00:44:13] Jared: yeah.

[00:44:13] Chuck: Just

too hot, too hard.


did you chug it already? That's,

[00:44:17] Preston: Oh, uh, yeah, it's, it's

[00:44:18] Chuck: gone

[00:44:18] Jared: Well, I was going to say,


some water, see what happens.

Yeah, you, should do that.

Yeah, I would like to do that as well.

[00:44:24] Preston: Uh, I think, oh, there's the water.

[00:44:27] Chuck: Our


assistant is, uh, is taking his, his first,

[00:44:31] Jared: I, think.

smell wise, I got, like, kind of turpentine and pencil shavings or something. Wow, okay.

[00:44:37] Preston: shavings.


[00:44:39] Jared: I


[00:44:39] Chuck: heard pencil shavings as a wine descriptor before,

so, you know, being able to

[00:44:43] Robbie: favorite

flavors, so. turpentine,

[00:44:45] Jared: turpentine, but

it's, this is really hot.


[00:44:49] Chuck: Yeah, it is super hot, but

[00:44:50] Jared: I...

[00:44:50] Preston: I

[00:44:51] Chuck: know, I steer this in this direction, so I'll take full responsibility. I don't think it's bad. I like these,

[00:44:57] Jared: um...

[00:44:58] Chuck: I'm, I'm probably going to give it a six

though, like in, I mean, you're going to get something different. I feel like OESK was my jam back in the day.

So I haven't been, I don't know if they had this at all,


[00:45:11] Robbie: letters even mean?

[00:45:12] Chuck: I don't remember. They had a descriptor on their site and I didn't memorize that because nobody

pays me

[00:45:17] Robbie: why not? do you

remember the chicken cock marketing?

[00:45:20] Jared: All the

stuff on their site.

[00:45:22] Robbie: the, all the stuff on

[00:45:23] Chuck: there. Oh yeah, yeah. Uh, about it being an old brand and all that kind of stuff,

[00:45:27] Robbie: It's

like a creamy,

buttery mouthful

[00:45:29] Chuck: Oh wow!

[00:45:30] Jared: that

how you describe your

[00:45:32] Chuck: Is that

how you describe

your chicken cock?

[00:45:33] Robbie: That's

how they

describe it on their


[00:45:36] Chuck: site. That's what she said. Anyway, we should,





is up

[00:45:40] Jared: first. Yeah,

I think

I'd give it, well, it's about expectations, right? Like, if I know going into it that it's as hot as it is, then I'd probably, like, that's a six for me. Like, it's, and also just having added the drops of water, it's melted out quite a bit.


it already

[00:45:55] Robbie: It's as It

[00:45:55] Chuck: gets a

[00:45:55] Jared: little


Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:57] Chuck: Well, there

[00:45:58] Preston: So I didn't know about the drops of water thing.

I was, the first time I tried it, I was amazed how much it changes. Yeah, it is ridiculous.

[00:46:07] Chuck: learned that technique at the Jack Rose, because I, again, Kentucky boy, whatever else, even though I knew some things about whiskey and what I liked, I definitely didn't have like...

These refined tasting like

[00:46:20] Preston: notes Mm-hmm. and

things Yeah.

[00:46:22] Chuck: and that's what they would say there is like get a two ounce pour

[00:46:25] Jared: and

[00:46:26] Chuck: Then you have some of it and then do this and it's like having two whiskeys



[00:46:31] Jared: really is.

[00:46:31] Preston: Yeah.

[00:46:32] Chuck: So that's kind of fun. You get like two for one out of the whole deal All right, I think

[00:46:36] Jared: Alright,

[00:46:36] Chuck: settled on on our

[00:46:38] Robbie: Should we steer back to some Ember stuff?

[00:46:41] Talking Glimmer & Starbeam

[00:46:41] Preston: Yeah, I think there was a point I wanted to make about the, so, uh, you were talking about, Glimmer and how that didn't really take off outside of the Ember ecosystem and you were, proposing how Starbeam could be different. And I wanted to add that I think Glimmer's scope was too big. I think StarBeam being as focused as it is, and with reactivity in general being a hot topic, kind of places it in a really good spot.

And then additionally, I think the fact that it provides two reactive primitives that no other framework has puts it in a really good spot. So, like, resources is one primitive that... Um, React's


no one has. Um, they're similar to hooks, except that, um, they're better? Um,

[00:47:38] Chuck: Yeah,

well, there you

[00:47:39] Preston: yeah. and then modifiers.

Modifiers are like reusable, element behaviors.

[00:47:46] Chuck: Mm hmm.

[00:47:47] Preston: Um,

which you can simulate in different ways in various frameworks, but, Modifiers provide a, a named concept for working with an element. And, like, making, making it have an animation, or making it autofocus, or, adding some event listener to it.

Like, modifiers are really good at that. And, I think, Providing that capability to, React and everyone else is going to be really good for, um, JavaScript in general. and I think that will kind of like, back channel into people's minds for like, hey, Ember's a thing.

[00:48:27] Chuck: Yeah, well, there you go.

It could like tie the things back. I do. I have seen the examples within a react application, and I think that is like a nice paradigm to show. Although I am gonna like kind of come back and needle you a little bit on the whole, like it's better

[00:48:44] Jared: because I

[00:48:45] Chuck: don't like

subjective things. So like when you say better, like literally what?

How is how is it better? And

[00:48:52] Jared: not just because like,



[00:48:54] Chuck: and it is fine to have a subjective opinion,

[00:48:56] Preston: right? Yeah.

[00:48:57] Chuck: Because we can all get there a billion different ways, and there's nothing wrong with, like, choosing the one that just feels right to you, or is comfortable to you, or just is productive to you, and all those things are not, not wrong answers.

But if you're going to, like, evangelize, and say things are better, then I think you gotta bring a little muscle behind that, and you have to say, these, this is why I think this is, a decision that, We'll get you

there. Why it's a better decision. Because it's, this does this and this does that. I like objective ideologies into


[00:49:31] Why resources are better than hooks

[00:49:31] Preston: Yeah. Yeah, so, resources are better than hooks because resources represent a value tied to a lifetime

what that means is like, if you're familiar with React, like useState and any custom hooks, they return a thing,

and then like useEffect has

[00:49:53] Jared: useEffect has,

[00:49:53] Preston: cleanup, but they are separate


Resources combine those into one cohesive concept. So, a resource, represents a value, and can have cleanup. All in one thing. And, you,

fully subscribe to the pattern of derived data.

Which gets you out of the use effects problem that many React devs find themselves in. Where they're like using use effect way too much.

When, if they just think about the whole reactivity paradigm a little bit differently, they can have a more performant app by deriving their data rather than, reproducing it in additional renders via


resources kind of like...

[00:50:38] Robbie: Shove

[00:50:39] Preston: you into that derived data pattern

and then give you that clean up, uh, behavior when you need it.

So like if you need to get rid of an interval, close

[00:50:48] Jared: web


[00:50:49] Preston: a WebSocket, um, a board, a fetch, uh, anything that it's that that tool is there for you.

[00:50:54] Chuck: Right. Yeah. No, that's good. I appreciate that. And I know that you have the con like to be clear.

I also know that you have the context like

that you haven't only worked in ember for the last 10 years or something like that. Like you've you've built real life apps and like you, you

[00:51:11] Preston: the

week, Bill. I haven't.

[00:51:12] Chuck: have done that

mostly. Yeah.

Unless tailwind gives you an easy, you know,

[00:51:16] Robbie: Yeah, that's

javascript, right? Tailwind.

[00:51:19] Preston: off.

[00:51:19] Jared: I

I I think the, the, uh, story around its interoperability with the other frameworks though is also a huge differentiator between what, you know, Glimmer was trying to do, which is really just break out the rendering layer,

[00:51:31] Preston: rendering.

Uh huh.

[00:51:31] Jared: showing that we could do that too,

that. It is just

a component of this, all these tools that you're provided anyway.

And this, whether you like it,

you know, more or not, it gives people a chance to kind of see how reactivity is different in, in a system like Ember.

[00:51:47] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:51:48] Jared: and I agree

[00:51:48] Chuck: with that,

and I think that,

uh, it is kind of apples and oranges. I really was like taking it from the context of, of marketing essentially, which was, let's talk about this, this thing coming out of this ecosystem and then it fizzled,

[00:52:03] Jared: but

it was just,

[00:52:04] Chuck: you know, the underlayer. This other thing is actually a real tool you could apply across

[00:52:09] Robbie: projects.

Speaking of

[00:52:11] Preston: tool you of marketing, that is something like the Ember ecosystem as a whole has not been great at the whole evangelism of the framework and the tools and patterns within. And I think it's interesting how, at least from my perspective as an observer of tech Twitter,

people in the React ecosystem are perfectly fine with half baked things and are just, like, willing to try an idea and then run with it in their production code.

[00:52:41] Chuck: Um, that is something like

[00:52:43] Preston: Whereas in Ember, people will not touch something unless it is, like, the blessed, like, this is, quote, the Ember trademark, way trademark, you do it trademark.

And there's just like, a lot less willingness to experiment, which is an interesting challenge to overcome.

[00:53:07] Chuck: Because you

got burned so much in

[00:53:09] Preston: Yeah. It's,

[00:53:11] Chuck: this thing that's different.

[00:53:12] Robbie: trademark, and there's just, like, a lot less willingness to overcome.

[00:53:15] Chuck: no, no, no, no, you're not. So then you went, aw, crap. So like,

[00:53:19] Robbie: Yeah, people are scared that that will happen, and they just don't try. Yeah, it's

[00:53:24] Jared: important


[00:53:26] Chuck: is

[00:53:27] Preston: framework has conventions that there is an easy and clear communicative way to Escape those conventions. So, like, um, React has succeeded in this a lot, where, um,

[00:53:41] Chuck: routing, so...

[00:53:42] Preston: React or Next? Well,

[00:53:43] Jared: So, um, React has where, um,

[00:53:44] Preston: I was about to talk about routing, so who knows?

[00:53:47] Robbie: There's no

routing in


[00:53:48] Jared: there next.

[00:53:49] Preston: Well, yeah,


[00:53:50] Chuck: it's more

[00:53:50] Jared: next, 'cause

I think Next


[00:53:51] Chuck: conventions that they're

[00:53:52] Jared: now

[00:53:53] Preston: I mean, like, as a


Like, for, for

a little bit, there was React Router.


[00:53:58] Jared: I

mean it's still


[00:53:59] Preston: Well, yeah,

it's still there.

[00:54:01] Chuck: now

Yeah. Yeah. I was

gonna say like, uh, yeah, Kent might feel otherwise even though he is not

employed there anymore.

[00:54:07] Jared: Like

[00:54:08] Preston: Yeah,

[00:54:08] Robbie: I don't know what he's doing

[00:54:12] Preston: then the escape hatches were there to do it.

[00:54:18] Chuck: Yeah, yeah.

[00:54:19] Preston: And that, that made people feel empowered and that's what, what kept things going.

[00:54:24] Chuck: And That's true. That's true. Yeah.

[00:54:26] Robbie: I just want to be told what to do. I don't, I don't need to do fancy other stuff.

[00:54:31] Jared: other stuff.

[00:54:31] Preston: I like



[00:54:32] Chuck: why you got married.

[00:54:34] Robbie: Well, yeah. I'll be

told what

to do.

[00:54:36] Chuck: Oh,

[00:54:37] Preston: Oh,

[00:54:37] Chuck: man. Well, I can get cut out to be quiet all year. It's amazing.

[00:54:44] Closing out

[00:54:44] Jared: A little further. So, I mean, if you use Ember and you like it, you know, it's your community, your framework, the core team meetings are generally open, you're welcome to, like, and we encourage people to come and attend. Um, I can speak for the learning team meetings.

We'd love for people in the community to come and attend the meetings and, you know, participate wherever they can. We need help, and we certainly would appreciate it.

[00:55:08] Robbie: Yeah,

and the community is very welcoming, like, as opposed to many other communities where they don't help you.

[00:55:13] Jared: many other communities

[00:55:14] Robbie: you know, it's, it's easy to become a contributor. Well, easy is relative, but you know

what I mean?

[00:55:20] Preston: Yeah, I want to say, same, call out for the tooling team. Um, I personally have subscribed to every Ember repo. So I get all of the emails, all of the GitHub notifications. So if you ask a question and I happen to know something about your question, I may answer.

[00:55:37] Chuck: I answer it.

[00:55:37] Robbie: of


[00:55:39] Chuck: going to start just putting random issues up, like... Is this

[00:55:42] Jared: taco a sandwich?

Is this


[00:55:44] Chuck: a sandwich?

[00:55:45] Preston: I will


[00:55:46] Jared: Speaking, speaking of, I


[00:55:48] Chuck: is on brand, is, uh, Will, does this support, can you use Bun?

[00:55:53] Preston: Uh, is BUN


[00:55:55] Robbie: isn't bun only


[00:55:56] Jared: react?

[00:55:57] Robbie: I

[00:55:58] Chuck: don't,

no, it's a runtime, it's

[00:55:59] Robbie: I thought it was only for react.

[00:56:02] Chuck: only for

[00:56:02] Preston: it's a node replacement.

[00:56:03] Chuck: Yeah, exactly, like,


[00:56:04] Robbie: Well, I don't know. I mean,

[00:56:06] Jared: How do

you say that? It's

[00:56:07] Chuck: Deno, Dino and like

[00:56:08] Robbie: It's Dino.

The author has said it's

[00:56:10] Jared: Yeah, because it's like a

[00:56:11] Preston: okay, I will say this. If Veet supports Bun, then Ember will support Bun.

[00:56:16] Chuck: Buck.

Oh, well there you go. Uh, yeah. 'cause vet's not a runtime, so I guess that makes sense. Um,

So, is

[00:56:23] Is Steam Deck worth buying/portable gaming

[00:56:23] Chuck: it still worth buying a steam deck?

[00:56:25] Preston: a Steam Deck? Um, I don't think it's ever worth buying a portable gaming system because I am team, uh, PC Master Race.

[00:56:35] Jared: Master

[00:56:35] Preston: consoles, no handhelds.

[00:56:38] Robbie: uh, StarCraft

1 was on

[00:56:40] Chuck: nnc, So,

[00:56:41] Preston: Yeah, I don't know how, why.

[00:56:42] Robbie: like

a, yeah,

[00:56:44] Chuck: yeah,

there's a


steam streaming app or something. Steam Connect or something like that. Yeah. Like that might, yeah, my brother does that, but I


I just wanna play FIFA on the road and, uh, stadia got crushed and so my life is, is really shaken up.

And, so I thought Steam Deck might be a way to fix that.




Asus one,

that's the

ROG Ali,

or whatever,

coming out too.

[00:57:09] Preston: Yeah. So

I use

a couple open source softwares for doing my game streaming because while I prefer a PC for all gaming, because it's just superior hardware.

I still like

playing on the couch,

but I can't take my PC out to the couch. Um, so if there's this server software called sunlight and this client software called moonlight. Where you can, with very low latency, stream your game from your gaming PC to some other device, be that Android, another

[00:57:45] Jared: a laptop, the

[00:57:46] Preston: and you can just play on the couch, that could be on your TV, it could be on an NVIDIA Shield,

um, cause NVIDIA Shield, uh, got rid of their Game Stream software, so now I use Moonlight and Sunlight, and it's


[00:58:00] Chuck: there we go. So you provided a third option. I like that. I'll look into it. If

[00:58:03] Preston: Yeah. And if you, and if you know how to configure port forwarding in your router, you can

[00:58:08] Jared: to configure port forwarding in your

[00:58:09] Preston: you

can do it outside your

house. Yeah, on the road.

[00:58:12] Robbie: well,

[00:58:13] Chuck: it's been a while, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I

[00:58:15] Jared: a little

about that.

[00:58:15] Preston: that.

[00:58:15] Robbie: about it. Host your own games, there


[00:58:17] Chuck: go.

[00:58:17] Jared: Wow, yeah, there you go. I've

[00:58:19] Chuck: got Fiverr, and

then we'll

see from there, but yeah. Alright,

[00:58:22] Jared: thanks

[00:58:22] Preston: a little FIFA while you're road tripping.

[00:58:25] Chuck: That's all



[00:58:26] Jared: I want, like,

[00:58:26] Chuck: I'm

free. I have a little extra time.

[00:58:29] Preston: You need, you need that ray tracing while you're in the car. Yeah.

[00:58:32] Jared: no, no, no. Let's not

[00:58:33] Preston: Let's not

[00:58:34] Jared: do that.

Uh, Yeah, yeah,

[00:58:37] Chuck: road. Flying

wouldn't work because

[00:58:37] Jared: the road. Flying wouldn't work,

[00:58:39] Chuck: I obviously wouldn't have a connection, but,

[00:58:40] Preston: Oh, not a good one.

[00:58:41] Chuck: just

[00:58:41] Jared: traveling.

like I used to do

[00:58:43] Chuck: on the iPad or whatever


[00:58:45] Robbie: You can play

every Steam game on the Tesla now.

[00:58:48] Jared: Tesla.

[00:58:48] Chuck: I don't have a

[00:58:49] Robbie: Tesla.

Well, I do, but.

[00:58:50] Preston: Well, , like while you're driving.

[00:58:53] Robbie: No, I don't, I don't know if it, I don't think it'll work while you're, like while you're charging, you can play games.

But, uh.


it doesn't work, it is, but it doesn't work intuitively,

[00:59:03] Chuck: where

like, It's

[00:59:04] Jared: not that bad.

[00:59:04] Robbie: You would



[00:59:05] Jared: could like,

[00:59:06] Robbie: use your finger as


[00:59:07] Jared: mouse,

[00:59:08] Robbie: but it,

it doesn't work that

[00:59:10] Preston: way. Oh,

[00:59:10] Robbie: Like, you like, touch where it should be like, clicking, and it's like,

raaah, like it doesn't,

so you really need a controller

to actually play,


[00:59:18] Jared: I, I

[00:59:19] Chuck: Took

a road

trip from Phoenix to L. A. in an electric car, added about an hour, give or take, of

[00:59:25] Jared: of time

[00:59:26] Chuck: extra.

Because I made two stops, you get on a 350 watt charger, and you can

shoot up

pretty quickly.

[00:59:32] Preston: nice.

[00:59:32] Robbie: pretty quick. Anyway,

[00:59:33] Chuck: fun, fun facts there.

[00:59:35] Robbie: Well, yeah,

[00:59:36] Chuck: let the people know, what you got going on, and,

[00:59:38] Robbie: uh,

yeah. you.

guys want to plug

[00:59:40] Jared: anything?

I for me, just the learning team. Come to the meetings if you want to participate.

[00:59:45] Chuck: not, yeah, and his name online is, uh,

not Jared from Subway.

[00:59:51] Robbie: It's

[00:59:52] Jared: It's, it's Jared Galanis. I think on Twitter, GitHub, all the places. It's probably just at, it's just Jared on Discord, but you can find me out everywhere.

[01:00:00] Preston: I am Novox populi everywhere. And the thing that I want you to know is that Ember Comp, uh, happened. I don't know if the videos will be up by the time you hear this, but there are some really good talks that are, at the time of speaking planned. I hope they're good by the time I hear them.


[01:00:23] Robbie: Yeah.

We can't vouch for them as of now, but

[01:00:26] Chuck: think except

for the,

the Friday 1130, that one's going to fucking crush


[01:00:31] Robbie: Is that when we, when we are, that's us. Yeah. I don't know what time we do


[01:00:35] Jared: or


early, but

[01:00:36] Preston: Yeah, the other thing is that, I am partially polyfilling. The future of Ember for older versions of Ember, so if you're with an organization who maybe isn't prioritizing maintenance and you're maybe on Ember 3 and you can't get to Ember 4, I am providing a polyfill for Starbeam, , that you can use in 3.

28, and that allows you to use resources, allows you to use, uh, fancy new modifiers, um, though Ember modifier is still a good option, it's perfectly fine, but the, all of the new programming paradigms are portable to Ember 328. And with Ember Polaris, the exciting thing there is that with the GJS and GTS


that we haven't talked about this

[01:01:27] Chuck: haven't talked about this

[01:01:29] Preston: Um, you can still invoke like pre octane components with that.

So if you're

[01:01:36] Robbie: you're

[01:01:37] Preston: in a team that hasn't gotten fully up to date, you can still use the new stuff.

[01:01:42] Jared: Yeah, it just ties back into the backwards compatibility story and the stability. Yeah.

[01:01:47] Robbie: Yeah, it's one of the unique things about Ember. Like, I don't feel like no one else supports that many versions. Like, for better or for worse,

[01:01:55] Chuck: what's


[01:01:56] Jared: what's


[01:01:58] Robbie: Um,

I think it's those mugs that heat

[01:02:01] Chuck: themselves


[01:02:01] Robbie: Oh,

[01:02:02] Preston: I

[01:02:03] Jared: up. Yeah.



[01:02:04] Chuck: on that note,

folks. Yeah,

[01:02:06] Robbie: Thanks everyone for listening. If you liked it,

please subscribe.

Leave us some ratings and reviews. We'll catch you next time.