114: Privacy, Cyber Crime Stories, and Tech with Jack Rhysider

[00:00:05] Robbie: What's going on everybody? Welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot, with your hosts RobbieTheWagner and Charles William Carpenter III.

[00:00:16] Chuck: Now let's just go with Chuck.

[00:00:17] Robbie: Alright, it's Chuck. We have a special guest today, Jack Rhysider. How's it going, Jack?

[00:00:24] Jack: Hey, how's it going? Thanks for having me.

[00:00:25] Robbie: Yeah, thanks for

[00:00:26] Chuck: Yeah, thanks for being on.

[00:00:28] Robbie: I think a lot of people have probably heard of you, but for those that haven't, uh, could you give a quick intro into who you are and what you do?

[00:00:34] Jack: Yeah, I'm Jack Rhysider. I make the podcast Darknet Diaries. This is a show that goes into... Well, I like to think of it as a slow news cybersecurity podcast sometimes, right? So it's like, when the news first hits. It's like we have more questions than answers, right? And so I'm like, wait, let's wait, let's wait four years and come back to this story.

Because then maybe we'll know who did it. And they were arrested and we've got some verdicts and all this kind of stuff and the damage. So then that's when I, uh, that's when I think a story is ripe to tell. When we have more answers than questions. And that's, that's when I go back to the beginning and we tell the whole story, soup to nuts. That's what I like getting into, but before that I was a, network security engineer, so mostly working with firewalls and intrusion detection systems and, uh, reviewing logs and looking for incidents in the network. So, yeah, 10 years doing network security.

[00:01:26] Chuck: Very cool. Yeah, I think I heard you mention one time that like sometimes the impetus for you to start to go down the rabbit hole with a story will be, oh, the arrest was made, so we have a conclusion. So we kind of have, we know, oh, it's in, and it's in the news now, so you can work backwards from that.

[00:01:43] Jack: Yeah, yeah, exactly. If we, if I've got a Google alert that's like hacker sentenced and that's perfect because sentenced means they were found guilty and guilty means they were arrested and we could just go keep going backwards to the beginning of the story and especially if they plead not guilty because then we have to put all this evidence into trial and get witnesses to testify and it's just a Mhm.

Just gorgeous. All the details that come out when somebody says they're not guilty because you've got logs and incidents and it's wonderful. So that's my favorite stuff to just go look through 300 pages of court documents and find the story there. But a lot of times, I mean at this point a lot of people are just reaching out to me and telling me their stories.

And these are often the best ones because they're the ones that I don't even know exist. Nobody knows exist, you know, or just they're hidden and secret but they're willing to finally come out and tell someone.

[00:02:36] Chuck: Yeah, that's cool. I'm being able to, like, dig that out because people volunteer it to you. That's, that's a nice place to be. and stories that, uh, I don't know, just could be wilder than anything you ever see in the news, too, from

[00:02:48] Jack: Yeah, that's my favorite, right? When truth is stranger than fiction. that's my sweet spot right there. Cause I, I'm really not into fiction so much. Like fictional stories or movies. Because... It just seems to take a turn that you're like, yeah, that would never actually happen in real life.

Right. And it just, it's too much. And when it turned like that happens in real life. Oh yes. That's, that's where it's at. Cause now it's exciting. It's like, this, there's no way that this happened. And then you're like, nope, it's right here in court and the court documents page 200.

[00:03:17] Whiskey selection

[00:03:17] Chuck: absolutely did happen, and then that really blows your mind. Uh, humanity, it's crazy. Alright, well before we go too far down that path, let's go ahead and introduce the whiskey and give that a little shot. Uh, today we're having the Stellum Rye, and, uh, I'm not sure if we all ended up with the same one, we all went through different...

Purchase outlets, but mine says the lone cypress on it. So I'm not sure but it's 115. 34 proof So that could vary depending for each of you But it will be distilled an age in tennessee, kentucky and indiana So it's a blend of three different distillates at least one of those has to be an mgp uh distilled rye Uh, it looks like the mash bill is 95 uh rye and then can't get any other details about the rest, but We'll go from there.

[00:04:10] Robbie: It smells like blackberries.

[00:04:13] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:04:13] Jack: I'm not getting blackberries.

[00:04:14] Robbie: I just mix stuff up,

[00:04:16] Chuck: no... Yeah, there's no wrong

[00:04:17] Jack: it's not butterscotch, but I cannot come up with a smell that I can equivalent it to.

[00:04:24] Chuck: Hmm. When I feel like I have, like, some kind of butterscotch or syrupy thing, sometimes you can go maple or like creme brulee kind of things, too, where you get a little burny... Heh heh heh. Yeah, it's a hot one, so there's that.

[00:04:40] Jack: Mmm, yeah.

[00:04:43] Chuck: Hmm. See, I'm getting a little more spice out of mine, more like a cinnamon, even. There's, I don't know, I'm gonna give it a swig and a taste.

[00:04:52] Robbie: Oh yeah, that is spicy, uh, when you taste it.

[00:04:55] Chuck: Yeah, it's got some heat to it. So I'll assume, Jack, you're trying it neat, as distiller intended. Yeah.

[00:05:02] Jack: So I'm not a whiskey drinker, so it beats me what I'm doing here. I just, I've poured it in a glass and I drank it. Is there a non need way?

[00:05:10] Chuck: Uh, so you could add a few drops of water, you can add ice, absolutely, which will put a little bit of water in there and increase the oxidation of it, and also kind of cut the proofing and some of the heat from that. So, you know, any which way you like it. I, uh, I like to try it this way first, and then maybe do some things if I find it a little too burny, a little too hot, and go from there.

But, like, like Robbie said, it's all bullshit, we make it up anyway.

[00:05:34] Jack: My first, uh, my first word that comes to mind after the first just drop on my tongue is breathtaking. It really has this kind of, whoa, this, this is like, this is not a casual thing to just throw into your mouth. This is, uh, this is like really in, it's like really an experience, right? Uh, yeah, that's my first, my first word is breathtaking.

I have, I, I, I can describe wines fairly. Okay, but I'm having a difficult time describing this. I like the challenge of trying to describe a drink to someone

[00:06:11] Chuck: Yeah, it's almost a similar vocabulary, except for I think it tends to stray away from some of the jammy and like earthy tones that you get from a wine, and then these you'll get more leathery, , woodsy, , and then like depending on the sugars and stuff that get in there, that's where you'll get like your butterscotch caramel.

Things of that nature and then sometimes you pick up like some citrus notes and stuff but yeah with this usually spending a significant amount of time in wood and Obviously a much higher proof you tend to get and draw things out of the wood like that

[00:06:45] Jack: Okay, it's cold in this room, but I just turned my heater off because I don't need that anymore.

[00:06:50] Chuck: Yeah, it's heating you up from the inside so

[00:06:53] Jack: Are you, is this like, is this safe to drink? It feels like I'm drinking fire.

[00:06:57] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah, it

[00:06:58] Chuck: So 115 proof is quite a bit. So say, and I know you said you don't really drink whiskey. I'm sure you may have tried some things like Jack Daniels or like a regular like Jim Beam. Even a lot of scotches or whatever. They tend to be an 80 to 90 proof. So we're like really turning up the fire a bit on this one without going too crazy.

I don't know

[00:07:18] Jack: just a drop on your tongue is an experience. It really doesn't take much here.

[00:07:23] Chuck: Yeah, but it starts to mellow a little bit over time as it opens up, gets a little bit of air to it. And so I learned once at a distillery that like the first taste that you put in your mouth, um, will always be a bit spicier and activate your salivatory glands too. So they'll really get that going.

So then subsequent tastes, you'll be able to collect a little more. of what you, what you're experiencing, what you're, what you're tasting there. Now, whether you can associate that to a specific adjective or not, I don't know.

[00:07:51] Jack: Okay, can I, I just got back from DEF CON, and can I share with you my favorite drink I've ever had in my life?

[00:07:58] Chuck: absolutely.

[00:07:58] Jack: is always, when I go to DEF CON, I always try to find it. there's this bar, I don't remember where it's at, but it's called the Chandelier Room, I think it's in the Vedara or something like that.

There's a drink there that comes with a Szechuan button. Do you know what a Szechuan button is?

[00:08:12] Chuck: Mm mm, I don't.

[00:08:14] Jack: All right. So it's a flower. It's just a

[00:08:16] Chuck: Mm

[00:08:17] Jack: but it's. some properties that are unlike anything I've ever experienced. So I don't know, there's some mixed drink that comes with it, right?

The clear, a clear looking thing, and then they give you this flower on top. And so the idea here is you, you take the flower and you chew it up in your mouth and then you swish it all over and you just like coat your mouth with all the stuff that this flower can give you. And you can swallow the flower if you want or spit it out.

But the idea is just to really get your mouth. Around this flower and then whatever drink you have after that is an explosion of intensity that's unlike anything. And it really feels like your mouth is being electrocuted. And it's just like a normal drink, but my goodness, the stuff that's just happening in your mouth.

And it's an experience to the fact that, or to the point where you really have to tap out of whatever conversation you're in and be like, hold on a second. There's a drink going on here that I cannot, like, handle reality right now because this stuff that's happening in my mouth and it's, it's not a negative experience, it's just a all consuming experience of, of what is happening in my mouth here.

This is insane. And, and this, this drink here has a similar... Kapow! What is happening? This is, this is a lot to take in with just one bit. And I can't imagine what a Szechuan button would do to this drink.

[00:09:39] Chuck: Yeah, that would be interesting.

[00:09:41] Robbie: I'm intrigued.

[00:09:42] Chuck: challenge accepted. I want to, yeah, I was just saying, have you, did you like do kind of a before and after? So like take a sip of the drink without the Szechuan button first,

[00:09:51] Jack: I feel like it's um, almost a lemony, uh, rum. But it's, and so it's kind of sweet and just nice. But, uh.

[00:10:00] Chuck: but

[00:10:00] Jack: I don't really recall exactly what, what alcohol's in it. And, and so I just go to the bar and I say, I want that drink that has the shewan button. And they're like, yeah, right away. So I don't know what it's called, but if you ask for that, you'll get it.

[00:10:12] Chuck: I'll Google it. I think we would

[00:10:14] Jack: It's very rare. I've only seen a, that there's, that's the only place I've ever heard of this.

[00:10:18] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:10:19] Jack: funny thing is, is that when I go to Vegas, I like drinking ciders and, and I go, I've ordered a cider and they never have ciders in Vegas. Like every bar is like, uh, you want apple juice? And I'm like, no,

[00:10:30] Chuck: what? You're Las Vegas. Aren't you supposed to have everything I

[00:10:34] Jack: don't have ciders there. It's so weird.

[00:10:36] Chuck: that is weird. I don't know why this triggered it. Just, that seems like a natural thing for you. Jack, re cider. Jack, drink cider.

[00:10:43] Jack: Maybe that's it. Maybe

[00:10:45] Chuck: I'll make a lot of corny jokes. I apologize in advance. But the tide of Vegas, and I just briefly want to ask this, and then we'll do our little pseudo

[00:10:53] Jack: Yeah. Do we have any agenda here or are we just, we just

[00:10:55] Chuck: Uh,

[00:10:56] Robbie: We're just

[00:10:56] Chuck: so, yeah, I mean we have, uh, we have no agenda whatsoever. We have show notes that we, we do, some things we might want to talk about. You know, especially if there's any lull in conversation. But also, like, it goes where it goes, so I, I like that. But, uh, in looking up some things about you, I know you mentioned once during the podcast that you used to be a crap stealer.

[00:11:16] Jack: Yeah. Oh, wow.

[00:11:18] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:11:19] Jack: Yeah,

[00:11:20] Chuck: Uh, so, Robbie and I were like, discussing the fact of like, he finds it weird that they still consider that a dealer even though there's no cards involved, but I feel like anyone administering a game in Vegas is considered a dealer, right? That's fair. Yeah.

[00:11:37] Jack: No, I don't know about that. There's attendance that are like, uh, on the, on the, you know, slot machines.

[00:11:43] Chuck: Oh, that's true. Yeah, they're Hmm. Hmm.

[00:11:46] Being a craps dealer

[00:11:46] Jack: yeah, I guess any time, anytime there's a table that would be a dealer. Yeah, I, I mean, the joke I have is, Oh, I, I was, you know, I got into drugs for a while, but then I became a dealer and the, uh, the, the, the arc there is that I was a pharmacy technician for a little while and just, um, handling all the prescriptions and stuff and then, um, decided that wasn't for me and got it, uh, got, went to Vegas and yeah, became a, a craps dealer.

I liked craps. I tried dealing a blackjack and roulette as well, but those just weren't the same excitement as craps. Craps is such an insane. game to, to manage because people are throwing money over the, over your head and it's hitting the table and it's splashing the pot and you don't know what's happening and the dice are flying and there's just thousands of dollars at stake all over the place.

I have to be so focused on, like, my goal as a craps dealer is to Get to know every single player that comes to my table try to guess what their next bets gonna be because if I can help them be like don't forget you like playing this, then they'll appreciate that.

But also it helps me know what's going on because you're just, you're just setting chips down on the table and then chaos is happening. The tight dice are flying. There's sticks, you know, going on. And so things get messed up real fast and real easy. And so you have to kind of memorize where every single dollar is on the table it's just an intense amount of focus.

All the time, the whole time. And there's really like two people paying attention to, each side of the table and, and yeah, it's, it's a wild game to just jump into and try to, uh, to, to manage that. But there's just, I don't know, there's, there's an art to it. There's a style to it. There's a, uh, aspect to it that just draws me in that.

And I, I, I gave it a shot like when I, when I first went there, it was the old, it was the old school Vegas style where I just showed up at a casino and I told the pit boss, I want to be a dealer here. And he's like, let's see if what you got, get on the stick. And I was like, what? He's like, get on the stick.

Let me see what you got. And I had no experience. And it was just like, Oh, shoot. I mean, I know how to play this game, but I don't know how to deal this game. And, um, I was just awful. It was an absolute train wreck. And the pit boss was like, let's see how you handle a train wreck, right? There's a lot of pressure.

There's a lot going on. There's people yelling at you. what are you going to do? Are you going to quit or are you going to stay in? And I stayed in, I stayed in all the way until they told me to leave.

And he said, that is the most. Brave thing I've ever seen anybody do, because you don't know shit about this game.

And yet you were just like, cool the whole time. And he's like, you can have a job. I'm gonna, it's gonna take you three weeks to get trained up. I'll hire you at the end of three weeks. And that's how it started.

[00:14:25] Chuck: Yeah, that's really cool. I do think there's probably overlaps to other facets of your career. You know, just a career in tech to like, Staying cool under pressure. I think there's probably a degree of like pattern memorization and then using that to analyze things too as you're administering the game.

I don't know. I say this from the perspective of I was a blackjack dealer for a few years, actually. Not in Vegas, in Arizona, but still. Managing that game and that eventually, but I think the difference is what you said is that I could zone out during that game

[00:14:59] Jack: Yeah.

[00:15:00] Chuck: Because if people weren't overly active players or weren't really in a discussion with

[00:15:04] Jack: becomes very mechanical, yes.

[00:15:06] Chuck: mechanical, and you would just know by the patterns that I see. I didn't have to add anything, and then the math for paying out or taking or whatever it was, was, just became kind of robotic over time, but, but before we lose the thread, even though there's not a strict format here, we were drinking whiskey, and we can continue to do that, um, but we do have a rating system, so since we're, we're developers, we like it to be, uh, zero based.

So, 0 to 8, tentacles. Uh, tentacles is just a tie to our consultancy. And so, 0 being horrible, I never want this again. 4 being middle of the road, not bad. And 8 being amazing, this is what I always want to have. You can categorize it kind of whatever way you want. We've done so many of these that we tend to like slice it up with, Oh, rise go together.

Scotch goes together. Japanese whiskeys go together and that kind of thing. But you can throw it with whiskey. You can put it with alcohol in general, whatever works for you.

[00:16:03] Jack: Am I

[00:16:03] Chuck: I don't have, you don't have to go

[00:16:05] Robbie: yeah,

[00:16:05] Jack: No, I can

[00:16:07] Robbie: I can go for

it

[00:16:07] Jack: I, I, this is, this is a, this is inexperience for me, right? So I'm not quite a risky drinker, so I don't really know how to rate this in, in any way, shape, or form. But it, what it, what it kind of recalls me too is port, port is uh, I guess a type of wine. But it's, like, extremely strong, and so when you normally take, like, a full glass of wine and, like, I'm good for the night, uh, Ports is like, no, just give me a shot.

You just want a small amount. And that is really nice for just having, like, an extreme potency of wine, but in, like, just a small amount, and so just the tiniest bit has such an effect. And that, to me, is really... Interesting when, when just such a tiny amount has such a big effect. I've always been fascinated by this kind of asynchronous amount of like, I don't know, effect that something can have.

So, gosh, I feel like one rating is not fair. It's like that. There's a taste rating. There's an effectiveness rating. There's a,

[00:17:09] Chuck: Yay, you do you. Maybe you could set a new standard and we can start to, yeah, or average them.

[00:17:13] Jack: I'm going to drink this bottle. It's gonna take me a while because it's it's got a lot of drops in it and one drop is like good

[00:17:21] Chuck: Ha, ha, ha, ha.

[00:17:24] Jack: it I think it's a passing grade what is the scale is zero to ten?

[00:17:28] Chuck: Uh, 0 to 8, so because we, we take, yeah, it's octopus is, uh, yeah, you can't see it right now. Oh, maybe you can partially see it behind me, so there's... This logo, which is an octopus, and like I said, that was from our consultancy, and so eight tentacles, at least on average. Although I read recently that octopi can, uh, grow back more than one preemptively.

Like, when they lose one and they regenerate, and they potentially could regenerate more than one.

[00:17:56] Jack: I gotta get that. I gotta get that gene There's not like a negative effect to this drink. Well, I mean, there's a lot of negative effects to alcohol. I don't want to that out completely, but you don't get this kind of like, I don't know, bitter or bad aftertaste or anything that's just lingering that may come from, I don't know, something cheaper or something.

and so with that, I'm gonna give it probably a fairly good rating. I don't know. Five.

[00:18:24] Chuck: Okay.

[00:18:25] Robbie: Sounds

[00:18:25] Jack: feel, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a strong rater. I don't give, I don't ever give anything a 10 or eight out of eight because I always think that there's room for improvement. So that's taken off. So now the highest it could possibly be is seven, but I haven't really had a lot to experience.

So I think I'll start at a, at a five and uh, maybe find something better over time.

[00:18:47] Robbie: that's reasonable

[00:18:47] Chuck: possibly. are you? You want to go,

Robbie?

[00:18:50] Robbie: Yeah, I think, um, this is pretty good. I think it's almost as good as Sagamore. It's a little bit different, maybe a little punchier in the mouth. so I think, I think Sagamore is usually a seven or eight for us. So I would give this a six, I think.

[00:19:05] Chuck: Okay, fair enough. Directing to the point. Yeah, the more that I, like, take little sips of it, I just take, like, a little sip, let that swish around, I'm starting to get, like, kind of a, almost like, chewing tobacco y, like, after flavor. I don't know, it is, it's a lot more, diverse than even initially just having some I was just about to get real weird and technical here and put a couple of drops of water in just to see what happens.

, but I am quite enjoying it. I, I had mixed expectations, just wasn't sure, you know, when you have companies doing blends like this and they're sourcing, which was what it appears to be, you just don't know what you're always going to get. but I've been pleasantly surprised and I expected to continue to like be good and potentially even get better.

so I feel like I'm in the like, I kind of hate doing partials or whatever else, but I feel like six to seven for me. it's not a cheap bottle. I think it was like a hundred bucks that usually accounts for me because I, 6. 5 to four, um, uh, repeating. Because of the price too, I feel like I more harshly judge expensive whiskies because I expect more of them.

So maybe in that sense, I think I I'll just land on a six. It's good. I'd recommend it. I expect it to continue to get better. I look forward to having more of this. I, unlike Jack, will probably finish it quicker. Just because, uh, not because I have a drinking problem. A frequency problem. No. I tend to, because we have this show and we get a bunch of whiskey, Uh, I tend to share it a lot too.

To try to, offload some of my alcoholism. So, there's that. But, uh, yeah. It's a solid six for me.

Alrighty, so we'll talk about technical things in general. So I know that, , at one point in your career, , you went down the path of learning Python and doing some, uh, coding and, adding some of that, like, your tips and tricks to your blog, which was Tunnels Up. Is that correct? I

[00:20:59] On Python and Tunnels Up

[00:20:59] Jack: Tunnels Up was a blog I started, um, just, you know, as I was doing my career, you'd run into, I highly recommend everyone have a blog who's in, Technology. Um, basically every, every problem you hit and you start Googling and you're like quickly run out of options on Google, like, like an error message.

And it's like, sorry, no results for this error message. How can that be? What are you talking about? And so that's a great opportunity to blog that because someone else is also looking for that error message, right? And so just keyboard commands or any troubleshooting techniques that, yeah. I know I'm going to need again in the future, so the blog was basically for me for the future.

Next time I hit this problem, what did I solve? How did I solve it? And so yeah, that was the blog. And yeah, I mean, I've done quite a bit of coding as well, and building stuff is always fun.

[00:21:47] Chuck: So, would you still consider yourself a Pythonista? Or have you explored other languages?

[00:21:52] Jack: I think I first fell in love with Pearl.

[00:21:55] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:21:55] Jack: it was really a fun language because it was just so obscure looking. Uh, you could really shorten, like, everything to just, like, a single, like, a character almost. Like, a lot of, uh, variables were, like, one letter long. And it wasn't, like, a letter you're thinking.

It's, like, a dollar sign or an underscore or something. Like, that means the last variable. Let's use it again. Um, so there's these weird, like, shortcuts. And it was just really fun to just kind of use your brain in this way of, like, Oh, how can I make this? Even shorter, and even smaller, and more obscure, and it's impossible to read at that point.

But, that was great, but that didn't last. And I wish I had gone Python instead, because I think that would have been a more long term experience that I would have enjoyed. Because Perl, for the most part, didn't quite last.

[00:22:40] Chuck: Yeah, it's definitely out there in the wild, but I don't know that there's an active community. I could be wrong though,

just

[00:22:46] Jack: Yeah, it's very active, but it's, it's just losing ground compared to uh, I think what I like to do though, is just really go around the map and try to explore lots of different languages and, try their tools and just kind of feel it out and see, I think, uh, it's hard for me to stay true to any, anything, right.

An operating system, a text editor, everything. And just like. Moving around, just get more familiar with it. Like I, I used to, I used to have the motto, right? Like, uh, Windows at work, Apple at home, and Linux everywhere else. Like, there's all the servers and everything. I don't want to be just stuck in one. And the same thing with languages.

But the last few projects I've made were in Node. And I think JavaScript has kind of taken over the world. And... That's where I feel very comfortable these days, so if I don't feel like learning something new, I'll probably just pull up JavaScript and build from there.

[00:23:41] Chuck: we can think Node and Deno and perhaps Bun, if that. Lasts or comes into favor. yeah, it's definitely getting better and better. And the tooling there there's just so much great tooling coming out at, just waterfall rate. So that's, that's pretty nice about it too. It's just easy to get things done versus something else that might be a little hot and sexy on Twitter, but the reality is, Oh, I, okay, but I can do this thing and, and, and meet my needs right now.

[00:24:11] Jack: I think Ruby was probably my favorite language as well. I liked building Ruby on Rails, and the thing that I loved about it was the unit testing. how it was sort of integrated into the whole system. I think, I think some other projects I made, I really had to try to tap, uh, like, you know, buckle it on later.

And it just wasn't working, the unit testing. But, to me, unit testing is the very best way to develop. And it feels like that, that moment in, um, Star Wars, where Luke Skywalker's trying to, You know, learn how to use the lightsaber, and he's got the blast shield on his helmet, and he's trying to do it blindfolded.

the training is to try to block all the shots blindfolded. And he can't do it, he can't do it, and then he's got to use the force. And it, it really feels like that when you're doing, when you're building with unit tests. Because it's like, let's just tell the computer what Paige is going to do.

And then let's build to make it do that. you can build a whole website without looking at the front end of it. And just going back and forth between you and the unit tests to make sure it goes. And that is such a crazy concept to me that you can get into that space of, I'm not even looking at the front end, yet I'm, I know it works.

I know it works. Every single letter is. Is, is, is, you know, every single functionality of this site is working perfectly and without ever seeing it. It's so weird.

[00:25:33] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah, that happens with Ember some too, which was like the JavaScript framework that was kind of built on Rails fundamentals and, like you can go work on an Ember app and if it has good test coverage and you keep adding to the tests and you're building things with a test driven philosophy, then you can almost, you don't even have to start the app.

You can just run the tests and like, you know, you never have to even look at it and click through it. So it is very cool to do it that way.

[00:26:00] Jack: Yeah, what is that even called? Like, it's blind coding, you know, like

you're not seeing what you're

[00:26:05] Chuck: Development. It's called Test Driven Development.

[00:26:07] Jack: Yeah, yeah,

[00:26:08] Chuck: Yeah, TDD.

[00:26:10] Jack: That, that's sexy to me.

[00:26:12] Chuck: So you referenced Star Wars, so that does mean you like some fantasy stories.

[00:26:17] Jack: So the thing, the thing that I hate, like, as a, I, when I, when I make my show, I'm, I'm writing stories, right? It's, it's truth, but I still have to figure out when do I, you know, bring this character into the scene? Where's the arc going? Where's the twist? All this kind of stuff. So there's a lot of storytelling elements that I have to do.

And the thing I hate about. sci fi and this sort of thing is a concept called deus

[00:26:42] Chuck: Oh, Deus Ex Machina

[00:26:44] Jack: Deus ex machina, that's it, thank you. And this is where, oh shoot, we don't know what to do to move the plot forward, so we're just going to have the hand of God come in and just mess things up, and that's going to move the plot forward.

So suddenly this person has a super ability, or a tool that does something to get them out of the jam, and you're like... There's no way, as the viewer, I would have ever thought that that's a possibility in this world. And so they, I hate when they just make up things in the world to get out of a jam. And anytime that that shows up, I just absolutely hate that show.

And unfortunately, a lot of sci fi uses this, um, storytelling technique to just, Oh, you know, there's certain peril and there's no way they're gonna get out of it. Come back after the break and then you come back and it's like, Aha.

[00:27:29] Chuck: Just kidding, it's fine. Somebody swept in and it all worked out. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, I think I'm so attached to nostalgia. I mean, I'm a child of the 70s, Gen X er and all of that, and so I'm just happy to see some of my favorite things have life, but I definitely see a lot of issue in how... Like, far spread it can be, right?

They've gotta figure out clever ways to tie it together and figure out clever ways to keep the characters going because you can't kind of do a reset. Like, people get freaked out about all of that.

[00:28:03] Jack: Yeah, there is some amazing storytelling going on these days, which is really surprising to me. I did, I'm almost done with the Mandalorian series,

and I'm like, How are you keeping me on the edge of my seat every episode? This is crazy!

[00:28:18] AD SPOT

[00:28:18] Chuck: Who knew that Who knew that, like, Mikey from Swingers was gonna be an amazing, like, sci fi superhero writer? Like, in the end, you know? He was in Rudy. Swingers, and then all of a sudden he's like saving the Marvel and Star Wars universes.

[00:28:34] Jack: Yeah, it's surprising.

[00:28:36] Chuck: Wasn't on my bingo card, but you mentioned, a second there on like, your own storytelling and all of that.

What is your favorite story so far that you've told?

[00:28:45] Jack: That I've told? I,

[00:28:46] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:28:47] Jack: I mean, I think my favorite episode I've done is the Xbox Underground one, and it's one of the favorites for everyone, but um, it, that one, somebody brought it to me, I was like, okay, I don't know who you are, but I've been told to tell you my story, and I'm like, okay, what is it? And a lot of times it starts out with me saying, well, do you have like a police report or something that I can read?

Because that's a good sign of like, there's something going on. I can read up on that, right? So yeah, here's my indictment.

And yeah, I mean, this is one of those stories that's just too good to be true, right? There's no way that any of this happened. but there it is. And, but it was one of those that I was able to grab all these voices as well.

So it's not just one person's story. It's like four people I interviewed for that one, and they're all in the episode. It's one of those things that when you're making a craft, like anything you ever work on, you have kind of this imagination of what you hope it would be. And then when you look at what you've made, you're like, Oh shoot, that's not what I was hoping I'd make here.

But that episode was it, right? It was the finally I've arrived at where I wish I could make my show every episode. And this is my vision of what it's going to look like from day one. But that was like episode 44, so it took me like... 44 episodes before I finally hit my vision of what I, what I want this to be.

And yeah, I really, I knew it was going to be a good one. So I really took my time there. I, I, you know, I had all these papers on my desk of like timelines and everyone in that episode has like three names. They have their, their hacker name, their real name, and their nickname, like what they're really called amongst each other and stuff.

And so it was just really hard to get all the characters straight. And every time everyone would refer to someone, I'm like, who's that? They're all, that's that person. Okay. it just really, I just really took it slow. I think I might have worked on that one for nine months before I published because I wanted to get it right because I knew this was my opportunity to finally hit that high bar of, of what I want.

And I don't know if I've ever hit it again. That was kind of like a peak of, Wow, I did a really good one. Uh,

[00:30:41] Chuck: But you do have your North Star and so that kind of helps. Yeah, I mean, I think you're at the, uh, mercy of the subject matter and the individuals that you're interviewing and all of that. But you did, you answered one of my questions already, which is what is usually like your lead time, because your release cadence is one thing, but obviously you probably have to have concurrent things going.

Some things work out, some things don't. Some things just take a long time. Typically, how long does it take you to, to put together a show?

[00:31:08] Jack: Um, I think the quickest I've done is two weeks where I had nothing, not even an idea. And then I was like, okay, we've got a final product. And that took like really going as fast as I can for two weeks. probably the longest has taken a year. Many have taken many years, right? So I've got, I've got a lot of people that I tap on their shoulder like every year.

Hey, is it time yet? Is it time yet to tell your story, right? So it just takes, I'm, I am not a rusher. I don't care if somebody else has an exclusive or they're, they're just not ready yet or whatever. I'm like, you look, I'll be here whenever you're ready. And like I said, I like that slow news, right? So I don't care how long it takes.

Let's wait years. And so, yeah, and a lot of times I'm just. I mean, going to DEF CON, right? It's, it's, you go there, you meet people, and they're like, oh, this guy's kind of trustworthy, and you see him again in the next year, and the next year, and then the third time you see him, it's like, okay, listen, I'm actually a federal agent, and I have these crazy stories, and I'd love to share them with you.

It just took me a while to trust you, right? So, there's this building of rapport, and getting into the community, and, and asking people. So, sometimes just finding that story takes a year, because, and even if I know what it is, like, I know who, who can tell it. they're just like, no, not yet. So,

[00:32:22] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:32:23] Jack: getting, getting a year to a yes is not so uncommon.

So is that part of it, right? So once I get the yes, then I get the interview. It usually takes me about two weeks to, uh, go after that.

[00:32:34] Chuck: makes a lot of sense. I think there's probably so much preparatory work that goes into it aside from when you have the, all of the information.

[00:32:43] Jack: And I, and I, and it's hard to get these guests by design, right? I don't want those easy to get guests. It was at first, right? At first I was like, oh, you already gave your talk at DEF CON. Can you, can you tell me that same story on the show? And that was, that was kind of like just to get things going. but always it's been actually like.

I want those people that can't tell their story. I want those stories that have never been told. I want that secret stuff that you don't have access to these people. You would never ever hear this story. I'm gonna get it for you and I'm gonna show it to you. And that is, that's why by design it's very difficult to get these stories.

Cause I want the deeper one. I want the harder, the impossible one to find. Now, I guess if you ask me, what's my dream story, it's that sort of thing, right? Can I have Russia APT on the show one day or the, or the, you know, Iranian hackers on the show one day or something like that, or Chinese, that would be amazing, right?

And it's never going to happen, but that's, that's the kind of, you know, but those are the kinds of people I'm tapping on the shoulder.

[00:33:40] Chuck: I don't know. I mean, never say never. obviously it's, they're not incentivized to reveal their stories or information, but ego is a strong pool and you never know over time, someone can just decide that , they need to let it out in some kind of way. But who knows? I'm going to make a quick aside because I just sometimes can't help myself.

So I apologize, uh, in advance, but, So, your video filter, depending on the angle that you're at, have you ever heard of a juggalo?

[00:34:11] Jack: Yeah. ICP.

[00:34:12] Chuck: Yeah, at certain angles you totally look like a juggalo. So, anyway, and, and,

[00:34:19] Jack: I'm not a juggalo.

[00:34:20] Chuck: Yeah, so there you go. Just, anyone who was wondering in the audience, Jack is not a juggalo. But you can see at certain angles that kind of has that.

[00:34:29] Jack: I do love music and I'm not a music snob though, so I will listen to anything and really give it a shot.

[00:34:37] Chuck: Yeah. Uh, I was, that's funny. I was going to ask you a little bit about music because I do feel like obviously the art is very curated, uh, the music is composed. And so there's a lot of like hair and thought in the production of your show. And I very much appreciate that. And I was going to say like outside of more electronic sounding, music, is there other music genres that you'd like?

[00:34:58] Jack: Yeah, I've been kind of stuck on Radiohead all year. That's my favorite band right now. Yeah, I like, I like, um, you know, the classic rock stuff. So Pink Floyd and Beatles and, Bob Dylan. And I, and I play guitar to, um, learn some of these songs. So it's really fun. It's, I think it's such a treat to give yourself, uh, the ability to play a music instrument and then to play the songs you love.

it's just an amazing gift. So I, I think everyone should learn an instrument if they like music.

[00:35:27] Chuck: Yeah, I agree with that. Well, Robbie used to be in a band and his intro into technology was through updating their MySpace page and you know, having, yeah, yeah. That whole, he was, he was all about that. Putting their background music and all of that on. I have it on my bucket list to learn a musical instrument at some point.

I have two young kids and so that sort of strays me. I've been trying to get my son into it so we could play together, but. He's not quite there yet. I don't want to over force it, so.

[00:35:58] Jack: Yeah, music is such a story, storytelling element itself. There's just so much involved.

I went to a dance camp one weekend. you know, the musicians were kind of doing a little workshop. And they were like, Hey, I'm going to play something. You try to explain to me what. Story I'm saying and just a violin alone can just have so much expression and a story and I mean they went around the circle with all these different people playing different instruments telling stories with just the sound and I was like, Oh my gosh, there's this is such a rich world of music and that that was like, I don't know that opened my eyes that that day of how can this portray fear and and sadness and excitement and all this kind of stuff.

And so I kind of just let that simmer in my head for a long time. And so when I was making this podcast, I was like, well, I got to score this. I got to add all this, all this stuff. And luckily I've been thinking about this for a long time of what is it, what does it sound like to sound scary?

And what does it sound like to sound exciting? And, and I just kind of took that experience. I was not a musician in any sense or a sound designer. I mean there's about 15 songs per episode in the show just to kind of score it and design it. Most of those are inputted by me and picked by me and figured out where they go.

It's very much an artistic expression as well, too. Some days I feel like, oh, we're going to do dark country theme for this whole episode. Or we're going to do classical music theme. And all these, like, different themes I just pick out. And sometimes it is electronic and board. Mm hmm.

[00:37:34] Chuck: Yeah, I love that. I absolutely agree that, like, that draws emotion and everything. I think that, I read once that, like, that was, uh... One of the pools, cause you know that, um, uh, Trent Reznor from Nine Inch Nails and then he has a production partner, Atticus something. They did the Watchmen, but they've done all kinds of films and TV shows that you wouldn't expect.

They've done the score of that and like going in and taking story and then like having an emotional driver within that story. It was like something that really drew him into that profession.

[00:38:05] Jack: I'm really, I'm, I've been really focused on that. the album is called Ghosts 1 through 4, and is made by Nine Inch Nails, and it's an album that they put out, which is all instrumental. There's not a single word sung by Trent Reznor.

The, that album specifically when it first was released and they made it public domain, they said, use this however you want, put it in your film.

We don't care. And so that's why, that's why so much. Nine Inch Nails shows up in shows. I was watching the Social Network, I think the other day, and it was all Trent Resner, nine Inch Nails, ghosts. And I was like, I feel like I should use that album in my podcast at some point because, Everyone else is.

It's in like 20 movies. Um, I might as well just pick it up as well if that's the case. I'm just not sure exactly what the extent of how I'm allowed to use it. And so, last year, Trent Reznor released Ghosts 6 through 10. And there's a whole new album, and it's all instrumental again. And I'm like, is this public domain?

Like, tell us, like, and they're not saying it. So I think this is another, uh, I don't know. Maybe they're hoping that somebody will pay for it this time. Or I don't know how it's gonna work

[00:39:13] Chuck: I don't know. I feel like they're doing okay and that Trent Resner is probably not gonna knock on your door, but I don't know. I could be wrong,

[00:39:19] Robbie: He

[00:39:19] Jack: other one that's doing this. Yeah, I think who knows where it's going to

[00:39:23] Chuck: and he went straight edge and stuff too, so he's not like angry drunk anymore. And you know, he's very into like, you know, health and all that other stuff. I don't know if you're, you're a big fan or not, but I. I've seen them live a bunch of times, and the last time was probably like five years ago, but he was just like, you know, he was like Glenn Danzig, Buff, and just really the, the pinnacle of fitness.

[00:39:46] Jack: The other one that, that I'm focused on it in the same kind of light. There is Moby. Um, a lot of friends of Moby are like, Hey, can you score my movie? Can you score my movie? Can you get, give me some instrumentals, just anything. And he's, and he, and he realized like, Whoa, I have. A ton of, like, unreleased instrumentals that I'm just screwing around with in my basement.

I'll release this for free, and it doesn't have any singing on it, and it's just not even on any CDs or anything. It's just him screwing around. And I think you have to pay for it, but then all the money goes to, like, animal welfare or something.

[00:40:16] Robbie: Oh, perfect.

[00:40:17] Chuck: And I'm sure it's not insane to, like, the cost too,

[00:40:20] Jack: No, it's

[00:40:21] Chuck: mean, it's passive to him, right?

[00:40:23] Jack: this drives me insane. I've talked with, like, um, you know, professionals in, uh, California, you know, Hollywood and stuff.

Like, how do I get the rights to this song so I can play it on my podcast? I don't mind paying extra because this one song is going to make the episode so much more epic. It, it, it, certain songs just hit your heart strings in a way that's like, And, and they're like, yeah, that's like impossible. And I'm like, why can't I, why can't I just buy the rights for this?

And as well, we got to know like what countries you're, you know, airing it in and how long do you want the rights for and how much of the song and all this stuff. I'm like, okay, here's all the information. Like, yeah, we still don't know like who to go to and ask for this. And who's like, it's just such an annoying thing to get music into show.

[00:41:09] Chuck: I think that points to some of the flaws around DRM, circling back to, you know, you mentioned your favorite episode with the, the, the mods for your console and you own this computer but not really because the content that you also paid for needs to be like, uh, forcibly on this particular disk that may run out one day and then the whole thing is kaput anyway.

So I, yeah, I think there's just still a very legal lack of understanding around what DRM and ownership means in the digital world. And then conversely, you know, lawyers are just like, Just nothing. It's all nothing. Just make it very bare minimum or nothing if we can handle it. And then we can sue you if you do anything.

[00:41:53] Jack: Yeah, it's really frustrating.

[00:41:55] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, I concur with that.

[00:41:57] Jack: And it doesn't make sense because when you look around it's like, No one's following the rules here. You look on YouTube and everyone's just like, Here, I'm gonna throw in whatever song I want. I don't give a

crap.

[00:42:05] Chuck: And people do. Because they feel like they're such a small fish in a large pond. Then who cares, but obviously if you're trying to be ethical and, and legitimize the content that you're working with and then you will have a greater concern. And that's a, I, I perceive you as someone who cares about and tries to follow the rules.

Um,

[00:42:27] Jack: am waving a pirate flag on Twitter and you're telling me I follow the rules.

[00:42:30] Chuck: Well, you know, in, in a sea of pirates, you seem like a, you know,

A

more, uh, A gentleman pirate, right? So, so when you talk about Twitter X and people get, um, all up in arms and try to change platforms and whatever else, like, I've, I've heard you say in the past that, like, Twitter is your sweet spot, that's where you'd like to be in terms of social

[00:42:54] Jack: That was, I said that in 2020.

[00:42:56] Chuck: I know, right? So...

[00:42:58] Robbie: Before it sucked.

[00:43:00] Chuck: There... So, that's the segue though. Is that still the case? Do you have feelings about being on that platform? Is there somewhere else you prefer to be or?

[00:43:09] Jack: I mean, I think, I think the people really overreact very too quickly. We're starting to get into some hot takes now, man. We could get a couple drops of this.

[00:43:17] Chuck: That's perfect. That's what I

[00:43:18] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:43:19] Jack: people, I think people overreact way too fast on social media, and they're just, they're fueled by outrage, and it drives me nuts, right? And it's just like, oh my gosh, there's this policy which I never cared about in the past, but suddenly I'm a big, huge carer about this new policy that got changed, and so I'm leaving.

And, or there's a new app that spins up, and it's like, haha, this is gonna be the Twitter killer, cause there's this new thing. And I'm just like... this is the ebb and flow of everything. There's, there's no excitement here. There's nothing to jump around and scream or even comment on. there's so many Twitter competitors out there.

Parler, Gab, I mean it, it's just like none of these killed it. They just were all, what, what's happening is we become more... tribal, I guess. And be like, okay, our people are over here, and my people are over there, and those people are over there, and I'm just gonna be where my people are. that just becomes a thing.

Um, I, I, I sometimes liken it to Discord versus Slack. Right? It's the same exact app. It's just

[00:44:22] Robbie: Or they look different.

[00:44:24] Chuck: And they cost different. That, the only problem is that they cost different. No one would have left

[00:44:29] Jack: Their branding is what's different. One is for young folks playing video games. And the other is for business. And that alone, that alone, makes it one cool and one not. One exciting, one boring, one awful, one great.

Just because that's what it's, that's what it's for. It's the same app. You can do either thing on either thing. But, nope, this one's for gamers. No, it's not. It can be done for anything.

[00:44:56] Chuck: Yeah, I think the caveat is around the pay model, because all of the open source projects used to be on Slack, and as soon as they were like, you have to pay us, if you want history, then people left.

[00:45:08] Jack: Well, okay, but what I'm saying here is that you've got this group that says, I'm going to be here because this is cool for me.

And I think that's the same thing with like Twitter fracturing the whole social media thing. It's like, well, where's my group? I'm just going to go where my group is. And yeah, you have, you know, options all over the place. I think that's all that's really happening, is that it's just making space for people to find their communities and wherever they want to go. And, and not necessarily killing anyone, it's just growing everything instead.

[00:45:39] Chuck: And I think conversely too, because you can leave and go hang out with your own group, which is what they found with Mastodon or Blue Sky or whatever else. And they were like, Oh, all my friends are here, except for I want to argue with people and I can't do it here. Because all my friends came here, but the other people stayed

[00:45:56] Robbie: I think

the

[00:45:56] Chuck: now I'm coming

[00:45:57] Robbie: the best thing that I heard, uh, was Dave Rupert from a shop talk show was like, I like Twitter because like, there's some semblance of, I can say, Hey, Ted Cruz, you're a piece of shit. And he might hear it, you know? So it's like, that's what the magic of Twitter is like, that everyone is there.

So

[00:46:15] Jack: Yeah, yeah, so I'm everywhere because I have to market a show. I don't really want to be on social media at all, but...

[00:46:22] Chuck: Right. Well, I, I was going to say, like, you, Appreciate anonymity and privacy to a degree, but then conversely you have to do some things to promote that. And I think that they're diametrically opposed at certain points. Like how do you maintain privacy? Let me, let me step it back. Probably two, two notches there, because I think so many of us in the world have like tried to develop a, a social presence, but then Also maintain a level of privacy and many of us have traded off for convenience and so I don't know I guess I would say what do you think about that in terms of like we've traded so much for convenience and been data farmed like is there ever going back like how do you, I'm going to be 46 like how do I recoup some of my privacy and identity?

[00:47:15] On social media/privacy, identity

[00:47:15] Jack: Privacy is much harder than it really needs to be, isn't it? It's awful, um, why, why it takes so much effort to be private. I think just the world is trying to get so much out of you.

I'm really excited that, I don't know why it took us so long, but I'm, I'm finally excited that, you know, we have end to end encryption, uh, apps out there that actually... use the word privacy in a, in a, in a way that is true, right? So we're talking signal or proton mail. It's impossible for these companies to see your chats or messages or whatever. And that's great. Uh, Google can look and see every message you have. If a Twitter can look and see every message you have, That doesn't sound like privacy to me. we've known that for 20 years, right? Of course Hotmail can read my emails. That's just the way it works. , and so it was never really like a thing before. now it's like, wait, hold on a second. We're going to do it the hard way. We're going to make a whole website that cannot read any of your data.

And that's, and good luck subpoenaing us or, you know, giving a warrant, because we just cannot possibly give any information. And I love that, but that is definitely the harder way to do things, and I really wish more stuff came out in that way, where my data has zero, zero option for ever being compromised, because it's unseeable by the, by the server.

And so I think, you know, the more we move to these things, the more we adopt this sort of thing. The more it's going to be difficult for other companies to see us and get us and see what's going on. Um, I really like the book Extreme Privacy by Mike Bozell. Um, this is kind of a step by step guide of... How to buy a house without, you know, your name beginning in the public records or started a business without your name being in the public records or do everything like get a computer without it completely connecting to everything that you own.

Like I use graphene OS for my phone and, , different things to just kind of take that extra layer off of yet. You're not seeing what's in here. The other thing I really like is, uh, NBTV. This is Naomi Brockwell's channel on YouTube. She talks a lot about privacy and how to, how to stay off the radar of a lot of things.

[00:49:26] Chuck: I think those are great resources and I appreciate that because most of our audience are in the web application space and especially I would say over the last like 10 years plus you know, the push and the value. is about the value you deliver to the user and less about the security you deliver to the user.

Oftentimes security is an afterthought, and it's about make things and make features and, and push, push, push, push. And we'll kind of backfill and fix things on the back end. we've talked a lot about here about, like, especially people getting into the industry and the amount of effort and training that it had been taking.

Like, where folks don't learn JavaScript, they learn React, because that gets them a job, and gets them a lot of personal security, and, you know, I appreciate that path. It's been scaled back a little bit recently, but, like, they're not understanding, you know, what they're delivering and what they're taking from the user in the browser.

They're saying, we're delivering value in a feature, but there's all these other aspects that, that I think individuals should consider for themselves.

[00:50:29] Jack: yeah, I mean, it's, it's... It's awful how much data is being scraped on us, but there is a way to, like, I think the biggest amount of data that's being exposed on us is the stuff we're giving, right? It's the stuff we're posting on social media, it's the stuff that we're giving to these companies, like, oh, what's your phone number?

Here you go. think there's a tool called Sudo, which can just, like, here's ten phone numbers for you to use, and they'll all, you know, Redirect to whatever phone number you want or whatever. So now, now you can like pick which phone number, um, you want to just put into websites when you're signing up for our service.

Or give your healthcare provider, or give your family. And to have these kind of separate silos of who has access to my stuff, um, is really good. And the same thing with email addresses. Don't have just one email address, have many. Because

this is a easy way to identify you to begin with, right?

Like, um, Oh my gosh, I have this crazy story. Somebody found my Strava. Um, this is the, uh, fitness app, right? So, my daily runs, and they're like, Oh, Jack, it looks like you're running around the lake today. And I was like, What?

[00:51:34] Chuck: Ooh, they know what you did and where you did it. That's not great.

[00:51:38] Jack: Exactly, right? And, and, and I was like, this is crazy. Uh, what happened? How'd you figure this out?

So, um, yeah, I mean, it's just a matter of like reusing email addresses that I think, I think the way it was is that they found an old email address that I, you know, used to use and somehow I signed up with Strava with it and they're like, Oh, I'll friend Jack with this email address. And boom, there's my whole. There's my whole, you know, profile.

[00:52:10] Chuck: Right, right. And then they've, maybe it's a personal point of pride or something, just to show, hey, I found you. I know what's going on. You know, I know how to get things, but it's cool. We can be friends. Yeah. Just a little creepy. Just a little creepy.

[00:52:26] Jack: Yeah, well, I, I, I, I deleted that whole profile. Like this is burned and done

and out of here. And it's kind of ironic that it's Strava because it was a news story like a few years ago of Strava data breach. And suddenly everyone's profile of where they're running and stuff was out in the public. And I was like, Oh, wow, I should be careful with this app.

And then here I go. My profile's out there in the public.

[00:52:49] Chuck: Right, right. Lessons learned from time to time, I imagine.

[00:52:54] Jack: Yeah, yeah, so it's, so privacy's never just one and done. It's a, it's a continual upgrade. And I really think, you're never fully there because, I, I, so here's another hot take. I don't think, I don't think anybody believes safety first. I think when you're saying,

[00:53:11] Chuck: Unless there's a gun or a knife in their face, that, like, the, the dangers are obscured.

[00:53:17] Jack: like, there's the term safety third, and I'm really liking this better because, yeah, you're right, safety is third, it's never first. And the idea here is like, if you're a race car driver. You can't say safety first, let's buckle up, let's get a helmet. Because if, why are you racing a car? You're doing something dangerous to start with.

That's your first step, is danger first. And then we're gonna do safety second or third. Like, don't do race car driving if safety's first. Like, clearly, it's not first. And then anything dangerous that you do. And so, you know, take that, and now let's go privacy first. Let's go security first.

[00:53:54] Chuck: Right.

[00:53:55] Jack: right. It's usability first.

It's, it's, it's access, like, it's being, making my life faster first.

[00:54:03] Chuck: Convenience

[00:54:04] Robbie: Like, can I get food delivered right now? Okay, well you can know who I am and where I live, I don't care.

[00:54:10] Chuck: Yeah. I stopped doing this, but for a little bit I did the whole Amazon Key thing. Where they can open your garage and put your packages in. Cause I'm like, oh yeah, my packages won't get stolen. Yeah, but this

[00:54:21] Robbie: else will get stolen.

[00:54:22] Chuck: to my garage. Like, like, wait a minute.

No, no, no. Let me pull that back.

[00:54:27] Jack: yeah, exactly. It's um, I struggle with this quite a bit. I'm, I like things that save me time and I'll abandon security or privacy for that sometimes. And I hate that. I absolutely hate that. Privacy should not be this hard. I should, I should be able to say no. It's not, you need to do better.

[00:54:47] Chuck: I have said this a few times that, like, convenience is complacency. And I think that kind of goes ubiquitously, like, within just our culture in general. But I think that's probably another show altogether. I want to make sure, I know we're like pushing later into time and everything else, and I want to respect your time.

I'm curious, so if you didn't have this podcast and you weren't in tech, what other career do you think you'd

[00:55:12] Jack: We're in tech, okay, so the first

thing is like, I'm building SaaS websites, right? I would love to have this passive income, just pay me monthly for this service, and I don't have to update it ever again. Cause I hate, I have so many sites that I've subscribed to, like, wow, this site's just started up, and it's great.

I can't wait for all the features to come out, uh, you know, in the future, and they never have new features. They're just like, I'm done with this project. It's gonna make

me a

[00:55:36] Chuck: got your money. Yeah. VC money dried up.

[00:55:40] Jack: So that's what I, that's what I wanted before even the podcast. It's just like this thing that I can just build and be done and stop, step back and go live my life.

But you're saying that's not an option.

[00:55:51] Robbie: Yeah, non

[00:55:52] Jack: you make me think deeper. Oh my gosh, it's been too long. Where have I been? Every, my whole life is tech. is astronaut an option? I don't even think you can go be an astronaut.

[00:56:05] Robbie: Yeah, I don't think you don't have to be qualified. It's just whatever you're you dream that you could do.

[00:56:09] Chuck: Well, not, not the special person who gets to be there, like the teacher, you know, no. I think as an astronaut, you need to be military trained and then there's a whole other program there. So, I don't know of any astronaut that wasn't military.

[00:56:26] Jack: I mean, I feel like the core of what I do on my show is teaching, right? So I think there's got to be some sort of teacher in me that just can't stop teaching. But there's another element to what it's like, something, it's just like my drug. And that's showing somebody something. that blows their mind, right?

So, you know, you have that special secret, Vista that you only you know about and you bring someone up to it. And you're like, Oh, let me show you this, this view. And, and you act like, uh, you know, we're just going through a walk through the woods or something. And then you get there and it's like, pow, pow.

And it's this gorgeous view. And then, oh my God, this is the most amazing. How did you know this was? Yeah, I knew it, but I just want to surprise you. That feeling of just seeing somebody just light up, of like, oh my gosh, like, you know, your secret restaurant, or, you know, the bar that's downstairs that has no sign, and you sneak them in there, you know, through the back door, or something like that, because only you know about this.

I love that experience. And so, taking that, maybe a tour guide? I don't know, where

[00:57:26] Chuck: I was,

as I say, there's a lot of places you could go. I think that, yeah, there's the teaching aspect. There's the illumination aspect, and then you can plug that in a bunch of places. Well, then, okay. One step deeper than, or maybe shallower, actually, is just what hobbies, and then you mentioned music and learning music as one.

So what hobbies outside of tech do you have?

[00:57:48] Jack: I wish I could live a thousand years to like, explore all of them. But I mean, I would love to learn languages, music, like a bunch of music instruments. I'd love to learn so many. Um, all the dance moves, art. So art is really fun, right? But it takes a long time and investment to just practice over and over.

But, uh, it's really cool to like, make something that pa that... You can see and you did and like art's a really big deal for me. I did a lot of pen drawing in the last couple years

[00:58:22] Chuck: Yeah, I know you do like basically the sketch ideas for the art for episodes and on your website,

so like how much of that translates from your vision to the reality?

[00:58:35] Jack: it's, it's, it's, I mean, that's an interesting decision to begin with, right? Like,

it's a podcast, it's audio only, why put any effort into the visuals? But there's this world that I want you to feel like you're in when you're, when you're experiencing the show. I mean, why is there album art on a, on a, you know, a DVD?

Record because it draws you in more. There's something curious about it. There's something special. Why is there a cover art on a book? That's so cool. And you paid someone 1, 000 just to design that thing, right? Like there's something extra special about a good piece of art that combines with that Media that you're experiencing and I and I wanted that world I wanted you to land on the website and be like this is my vibe.

I want to go further What is going on here? I'm curious. I want you to stop scrolling and notice this Right? So there's a lot of branding and marketing aspects to it to build all this art. And, uh, yeah, every episode has unique artwork and it's really exciting and fun to make. It's not just... Um, slept together.

Some basic thing. I mean, it takes hours and hours and hours to, to work on every one. And yeah, I, um, I drum up the ideas. I look through a lot of Pinterest and I recently, I've been playing around with Mid Journey a lot to just have AI generate me crazy ideas. Like, what if we have a broken phone with a spider coming out that's infected with poison and see what Mid Journeys shows me and oh wow, that's an interesting concept there and let's keep going with that. So that's just recent. But yeah, in the, in the old before mid journey, I was, uh, just drawing things and coming up with ideas and a lot of sketches and stuff, and now my sketches stink, but it, it's enough for me to portray the idea to an artist to say, okay, let's make this look good. And, uh, yeah,

that's, uh, quite a bit of, quite a bit of artwork that I have to produce for the show, which is

[01:00:22] Chuck: I see a future where Jack Reciter gets a villa in Italy somewhere and just becomes kind of a passive Renaissance man.

[01:00:30] Jack: man, you're. Yeah, that's definitely it. I've been dreaming of that for so long.

[01:00:38] Robbie: there's not a lot of internet there,

[01:00:40] Jack: Like, I feel weird that you know that. Yeah.

[01:00:45] Chuck: It's a, it's a talent. I don't know. I don't know how I turned that into anything useful. It's that and, uh, pop culture, 80s and 90s references too. I'm really great at that. So, you know, if you happen to be on a trivia team and that's a gap, hit me up.

[01:01:01] Jack: Mm Hmm.

[01:01:02] Robbie: Yeah. All right. We are over time here. Uh, so before we end, is there anything you want to plug or mention?

[01:01:10] Jack: No, I think this was a lot of fun. Thanks for having me.

[01:01:12] Robbie: Yeah, thanks for coming on. Cool. Thanks everyone for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe, leave us some ratings and reviews. We appreciate it and we will catch you next time.

[01:01:22] Chuck: boom,