110: SST, AWS, and Ember with Dax Raad

[00:00:05] Robbie: What's going on, everybody. Welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot with your hosts, RobbieTheWagner and Charles William Carpenter, the first.

[00:00:14] Chuck: Yeah, I killed the other two. That's how you take over. I'm now the king of carpenters.

[00:00:19] Robbie: Yeah. Our guest today is Dax. What's going on, Dax?

[00:00:23] Dax: I'm good. How are you guys?

[00:00:25] Chuck: superb.

[00:00:26] Robbie: Do you want to, uh, give a couple of sentences for the folks at home about who you are and what you do?

[00:00:32] Dax: Yeah, sure. So, uh, my name is Dax. I am a software engineer, been doing this mostly at very early stage companies, either as a founder or like the first employee for the past. Uh, 10 or so years, , past couple of years, been full time working on open source, helping people build, , stuff on AWS, which everyone loves and I'm sure is really excited to do, but we try to make that a little bit easier, uh, and yeah, it's been a lot of time online just hanging out.

So that's

[00:01:00] Chuck: You, you forgot shitposter. Twitter shitposter. the way, this is a, it's not a PG show, so.

[00:01:06] Dax: that comes with the, uh, when I say open source developer, like that, I think that's implied. It's like the marketing part. It's not shit posting. It's called marketing. I'll have to clarify that.

[00:01:16] Chuck: Yeah. That's great. Let's say, uh, I'll, uh, I'll start, uh, marketing more directly.

[00:01:22] Dax: Yeah.

[00:01:23] Robbie: If it gets engagement, it got the job done. Right.

[00:01:26] Dax: Yeah.

[00:01:27] Whiskey selection

[00:01:27] Chuck: fair. Alrighty. So, to get things kicked off, we'll start by talking about the whiskey. So, Dax asked me to, uh, get the strongest, , highest alcohol proof that I could. So, uh, I selected today the Bell Mead Sour Mash Straight Whiskey, Straight Bourbon Whiskey, sorry. Uh, it's 90. 4... , proof. So 45.2 al uh, percent alcohol if math works, I don't know.

They don't give you the mash bill, but they say it's a proprietary blend of differing mash bills and yeast strains, but does include a high rye of 30%. It's not age stated. , but it does have to be a minimum of four years to be called bourbon in the United States. And, uh, most. Research that I found said that it's usually a blend of six to eight years, so even though this is a Tennessee whiskey, the, uh, misnomer is it can still be bourbon.

[00:02:16] Dax: Okay. You know, Nice. That sounds really good. I didn't understand 90% of what you said, but I think I'm sold

[00:02:22] Chuck: This is why, this is why I bring whiskey into the show so I can, for this just one moment, be the smartest person in the room. That's it.

[00:02:30] Dax: Well, I'm already intimidated now.

[00:02:32] Chuck: Oh,

[00:02:33] Robbie: We need to start having whiskey experts on so you can not be the smartest person.

[00:02:37] Chuck: well, I'm not opposed. Everybody wants to learn something. And then, we have fancy glasses. You don't have to have

[00:02:44] Dax: That's fancy. I put ice in mine. I know that was the right move or not.

[00:02:48] Chuck: Nobody, okay. I've given this advice before too, though. But I think it's good and it's worth continuing to share. , so I was on a tour at a distillery many years ago. Old man was doing the tour. It's usually like retirees or whatever else.

And he's talking about like some of the super expensive whiskeys, some of the cheaper ones. And he's like, at the end of the day, The best whiskey is the one you like. And, personally, I think that includes the way you like to have it. who's taking this into their body? It's not a trophy. I mean, if you enjoy it, and you happen to enjoy it a particular way, roll with that.

It's only Robbie I don't let do ice, so.

[00:03:22] Robbie: yeah. I used to do ice.

[00:03:25] Chuck: He did crushed ice, though, so it was like, come on. It's just pour water in at

[00:03:28] Robbie: No, no, it's, it's efficient as long as you drink it fast enough that it's not watered down.

[00:03:34] Chuck: Yeah. So this fancy glass is called a Glencarne. It's a traditional way to, like, funnel up the... Yeah, it funnels

[00:03:40] Dax: it has an impact on the,

[00:03:42] Chuck: Yeah, and it's supposed to reduce the amount of, like, alcohol, actually, that affects the smell that gets... Ah, who knows

[00:03:49] Robbie: Yeah. Mine is called

[00:03:50] Chuck: make a lot of stuff

[00:03:51] Robbie: whatever I found in my parents cabinet. So I'm not sure what this is.

[00:03:56] Chuck: It's called a free to you glass.

[00:03:58] Robbie: Yeah, it is.

[00:03:59] Chuck: You get a little floral and a little caramel. Yeah, I gotta get ahead of you. Uh, so

[00:04:05] Robbie: I was trying to pick a specific floral, like a, an amaryllis maybe.

[00:04:10] Chuck: I am not good

[00:04:11] Dax: Are you guys just making this stuff up? Like, what are you, what are you saying?

[00:04:15] Chuck: Okay, so yes and no, right? Like, okay, there are common terms that people will use to like derive things out of whiskey, but it's always about like smelling and trying to like, you know, it doesn't smell like flowers. It smells like a kind of whiskey that has kinds of grains in there that was in a kind of barrel getting some of the woodiness

[00:04:35] Dax: Right.

[00:04:36] Chuck: But ultimately there's no way to like give that a made up word. So you find Different olfactory descriptors to say like, Hmm, this kind of has like, as if I was smelling a flower, as if I was smelling like a chocolate, or a caramel, or choc Oh yeah, you know they do that with coffee too, are

[00:04:52] Dax: Yeah, I was, I was actually gonna say my friend is super into coffee and he explained this exact same concept to me. It's not like literally this smell. It's like the concept.

[00:05:00] Chuck: Exactly, and it's the same concept with uh, with wine too. So, I act yeah. Alright, I'm gonna try

[00:05:05] Robbie: Also smells a little like Twizzlers.

[00:05:08] Chuck: Hmm. Hmm. See, the problem is also when people say things, they start to, uh, it gets in your head. Suzie said Twizzlers. Guess what I was tasting? A little bit of, like, Oh, it does, it does makes, makes mouth happy.

Mouths happy? Plural?

[00:05:21] Dax: did not taste Twizzlers. I will say that much.

[00:05:24] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:05:25] Chuck: of that, like, fake red, whatever the Twizzler flavor is, I could get a smidge of that. It's, it's some kind

[00:05:31] Robbie: red dye 40

[00:05:32] Chuck: Yeah, red diphortheus doesn't cause cancer. Twizzler is a sponsor of this podcast, so that's why he has to say that. Nobody sponsors this.

No, but I continue to get more of a, like, a caramel or brown sugar in it as it sits, but... Oh, actually, , what was it, a couple years ago we were in Tennessee and we, we have tried this whiskey because we went to the Greenbrier Distillery in Nashville. Tried a couple other things. So that's how I knew it was like, this will be okay for Dax.

and the, the one of the tricks is too, is that your, your tongue, when you first have, like, this, like, harsh alcohol, will start salivating and throw off your, your tastes. So you should do a first one where you... Kind of swish it around, and get that out of the way, and then, yeah, chew it. That's what they call it.

Chew your whiskey first. and get some, some bitter, too. A little,

[00:06:20] Robbie: Yeah, I'm not tasting much cuz I scarfed down a little bit of Taco Bell right before this as I was setting up.

[00:06:28] Chuck: gosh.

[00:06:29] Dax: Oh, beautiful pairing, the Taco Bell and the whiskey.

[00:06:31] Robbie: Oh Yeah,

[00:06:32] Chuck: yeah. I don't know about that. Like, if you're going you Robbie argues that Taco Bell isn't Mexican food. It's just its own brand of food. Like, it's its own genre. So, it's like Del Taco or Taco Bell. I don't even know what else would possibly be in that category.

[00:06:51] Dax: agree with that. Taco Bell is like Mexican themed, but it's not like Mexican food. That's just their like aesthetic.

[00:06:58] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. the American crunchy taco, like they were one of the original, I don't know. I saw something once that said like they invented the crunchy taco. I don't know if that's a hundred percent true, but they were definitely like the purveyors of making that popular in America, I think.

[00:07:14] Robbie: Yeah, I can see that.

[00:07:16] Chuck: yeah. Cause that wasn't a thing in Mexico. So I guess in that sense, like they were leading with that initially. And Mexican pizzas are delicious. They're kind of tostadas, but kind of not.

Maybe I can buy it. Okay. You know, if, if someone else says it, yeah. Inspired by,

[00:07:31] Dax: Fusion. Yeah.

[00:07:33] Chuck: yeah. You know, it's like a, a bunch of white people have like a birthday party and have a pinata there.

Right. It's like,

[00:07:38] Dax: Yeah.

[00:07:39] Robbie: Well, maybe you don't have the party at Taco Bell, but yeah, you could.

[00:07:43] Chuck: you might have the party at Taco Bell.

[00:07:44] Robbie: Some people get married there in Vegas, so, mm

[00:07:46] Chuck: Uh, they had a pop up Taco Bell hotel in Palm Springs a few years ago. Actually. Yeah. It was kind of a funny thing. It was like going on for like a month and sold out like crazy. It was in like a, Bougie area of Palm Springs, too. It's like, I don't know.

[00:08:02] Robbie: well, we're getting very into whatnot. Let's, let's rate this whiskey.

[00:08:05] Chuck: Okay, so we have a highly complex rating system, so I hope you're ready for this. It is, uh, since we are developers, we will make it zero, zero based. Zero to eight tentacles, , because of the octopus. So zero, this is terrible. I would never have it again. You could even spit it out if you want. Eight, amazing.

This is my go to adult libation of all time, we'll just say it that way, for being just kind of like, this is fine, yeah, it's not bad, it's not great, there we go, middle of the road. since we have a lot of whiskey, we tend to like break things up and segment it, although this, you know, so this is a bourbon, would be like, like Maker's Mark, is a bourbon, that's kind of a popular one, Jim Beam, things like that, I'm not sure what you've had already, but, I don't know, you can categorize it how you want, because, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.

[00:08:51] Dax: okay. So you want, you want a rating from me who is

[00:08:54] Chuck: um, are you,

[00:08:56] Dax: before.

[00:08:56] Chuck: Right, well, yes, but you don't,

[00:08:58] Dax: of all

[00:08:59] Robbie: don't want to

[00:08:59] Chuck: you don't, yeah, but you don't, yeah, if we influence you too, so that's kind of what, that's the only reason why you're on the spot first. There's really no wrong answer.

[00:09:08] Dax: yeah. , so I've only ever had like, just the whiskey that you would see in liquor stores, like nothing special. So the stuff, so if you say like makers, Mark, Jim Bean, Jack Daniels, obviously, , just stuff that probably you wouldn't see.

It's not very good. So, relative to that, It definitely tastes similar. Like, I'm not like, this is a completely different drink. Like, wow, it gets so different, when it's, you know, special. , but it's definitely a lot better. Uh, so I would probably, if you said like four was like a meh, I think I would rate it higher than that.

I'd probably rate it like a six, I think,

[00:09:39] Chuck: There we go. Yes. that sounds great, that's a, a nice, solid like, not bad, pretty decent kind of thing.

[00:09:47] Dax: Yeah, pretty good. Like, I would drink this more.

[00:09:49] Chuck: Good, because you have the rest of the bottle.

[00:09:51] Dax: Ha, ha, ha. Well, my wife will take care of the rest of the bottle. She's the drinker of the two of us. She's, she loves us. Making like interesting cocktails at all kinds of stuff. So, uh,

[00:10:01] Chuck: Okay, okay, knowing that, I'm gonna put a pin in it then, if, in, for a second, like I'll come back later on, I got an idea. Uh, Robbie?

[00:10:10] Robbie: Um, I think I would say a six as well. I think it's pretty good. It's um, it's better than most bourbons. Like it has a little more spiciness to it. A little bit of some things I'd expect from a rye. So I'm a fan and I give it a six. Yeah,

[00:10:24] Chuck: Yeah, I knew you were going to be kind of high because of the high ride content in the Mash Bill. well for me, , it is tasty, it's pretty easy, it's not... Like anything crazy expensive either so and it's pretty accessible and I like approachable whiskeys, too I'm not like Pappy Van Winkle is my eight and this is the best thing ever You know, like I think it's way overpriced for what you're getting out of it.

So Given that I'm still I'm in it like a five five and a half something like that Like I'd come back to this I see it and I enjoy it Depends on kind of what I'm in the mood for so for me, I'd say five

[00:10:58] Robbie: All right. So let's start with some hot takes or let's, we should just call these lukewarm takes because most of them

[00:11:03] Chuck: Yeah, no, some of them they're old and some of them is like, you know, whatever. So yeah, uh, and these are essentially Things like questions we picked up from tech Twitter and the ridiculousness that happened. So

[00:11:14] Dax: Nice.

[00:11:15] Inferred types vs explicit

[00:11:15] Robbie: Yeah. So for TypeScript, inferred types are explicit types.

[00:11:19] Dax: I inferred all the way. Inferred all the way.

And to expand on that, uh, this is something where I'm not like, there's some things where I'm like, okay, certain things click with certain people and other things like with other people. And like, you know, I lead in this way or I lean another way. This one. I'm like, that's not, this is not in that category.

It's in the category of like, I don't think you understand the tool. If you're not using inferred types, you're probably writing stuff in a very different way. It's not really taking advantage of. Of certain things and that's why that whole conversation was so frustrating for me because it's like you're missing the point But I think I actually overwhelmingly most of the big types with authors leaned towards inferred type So I feel like at this point that's like

we landed somewhere with that one

[00:12:01] Chuck: Our sample audience I would say 80% of them said it depends and then had very long Explanations for going in either direction. So you'll think you'd be surprised I mean again, maybe it just depends on who you ask kind of thing,

[00:12:13] Dax: Yeah, well 80% of your the people you talk to are cowards and that's my that's my hot take

[00:12:18] Robbie: is, there is some of

[00:12:20] Chuck: That is a hot

[00:12:20] Robbie: aside, but,

[00:12:22] Chuck: Yeah, I think there is some of that. I think they're like, well, I know what I like, but I don't want to tell you what to

[00:12:27] Robbie: people to be angry at me.

[00:12:30] Chuck: I have my wife for that. Alright, I'm

[00:12:34] Robbie: All

[00:12:34] Rebase vs merge

[00:12:34] Chuck: going to take the git rebase or git merge.

[00:12:38] Dax: Oh, man, you guys are just going. I remember, I remember this week. I remember this week where it was first you inferred types and then we went straight into the rebase. Uh, I'm definitely in the rebase camp. , I actually, the first thing I do whenever I, started get repo is I like enforce all the things that make it so require linear history a rebase before merge, uh, all that stuff we have switched to just trunk based development.

So we like hardly use branches anymore. , so yeah, it just becomes that question becomes less relevant when you're not heavily branching. So definitely on the rebase side.

[00:13:11] Chuck: That's fair. Yeah, I'm a, I'm a, Propellant of rebase and I think just because back in the day where I got told read the fucking manual and do things right and kind of thing, you know, you just get your stuff rejected and wasn't necessarily like, fostered along the happy path of whatever project it just is like, I worked hard for this

[00:13:29] Tailwind vs vanilla CSS

[00:13:29] Robbie: Tailwind or vanilla CSS?

[00:13:31] Dax: Ooh, I actually don't do either. so, my history is, I used to use utility classes. I had a library I wrote myself called Legos.

Basically a shittier tailwind, like, I kind of grew it organically over time. I just added the classes I need. But it was all utility classes meant to be used very in line with The markup you are writing, , at some point when tailwind came out, I did switch to tailwind, uh, but this was after like five or so years of using that pattern, uh, and then a couple years ago, maybe three or four years ago, I've stopped, I think I used tailwind for like a short while right after it got popular, then I kind of stopped using that pattern entirely.

But I don't use vanilla CSS. , I still stick to, there was a great library called Stitches, which was a CSS and JS library, , that's now unmaintained. Um, but right before it became unmaintained, uh, I worked with another developer to bring its API To a new project that was built on top of vanilla extract and vanilla extract is a define your css and typescript thing Everything gets statically extracted.

So there's no runtime overhead, but then it still has all the great stuff that stitches did for building components , so my take on that is the reason I do that is it's a nice middle ground between um I guess it's not really a middle ground Tailwind is great because you don't have to think at all like you just right tweak your designs in line Very very productive up front , with something like, so the other project I'm referring to is called, uh, Macron, like, Dessert.

you have to think a little bit more up front, a little bit more effort up front, a little more tedium up front, but your markup stays, stays very clean. and I found for like, kind of long term maintainability, that's what, that's what I lean towards.

[00:15:08] Chuck: Okay. Clarify real quick. So when you said Macron, I thought you were like the French president, uh,

[00:15:13] Dax: always been confused about this. His name sounds just like Dessert. Is that on

purpose?

[00:15:19] Chuck: Do you mean the little cookies, like the macaroons? But they...

[00:15:22] Dax: but I think they're I think they're not pronounced

[00:15:24] Robbie: Yeah, there's only one O.

[00:15:26] Dax: a r o n or something like that

[00:15:28] Robbie: we, we do it wrong in America, but there's only

[00:15:30] Chuck: Yeah, we do it wrong in America. I'm sure of that. So...

[00:15:33] Dax: macaroons were something else entirely. I thought those were like a different dessert

[00:15:37] Chuck: It's just us being stupid. And just doing that. I'm certain. I mean, like, cause my wife loves those things, so we have them all the

[00:15:44] Dax: oh I love them too they're so good

[00:15:46] Will HTMX change things

[00:15:46] Chuck: Okay, so, let's see. Oh, yes, this is a good one for me, I guess. Just because I've been talking about it lately. will HTMX change the way we build apps, web apps?

[00:15:57] Dax: Uh, oh, this is a tough one because HMX finally give me a follow and now I feel like I owe

[00:16:03] Chuck: fuck it up. Don't fuck it up.

[00:16:04] Dax: no, I've only been making fun of HMX since they've done that. So I don't, I think I'm okay. Uh,

[00:16:10] Chuck: you got followed, yeah.

[00:16:13] Dax: yeah, that's true.

no, I don't think it'll change much. I think it is a fantastic tool for languages. Thank That do not have a web framework, or like you don't really want a heavy web framework.

Let's say you're experimenting with some cool, interesting language on the back end, you do want to ship a web app. Uh, dropping htmx in is a great way to build a somewhat dynamic application. so I think it's really great and useful in that scenario, and I think that's where you see a lot of the excitement.

but I don't think it affects the majority of... Like people doing heavy web dev work. I personally build really heavy client side applications And it like can't even address that so it's not even in the realm of like stuff that I would I would consider

[00:16:53] Chuck: I mean, I do think it's interesting in providing more, like, lo fi... solutions like Astro obviously preceded that or not. Astro got to prominence prior to and had people just start asking the questions. That's why, why not PHP now or whatever else, but saying, you know, why can't you have this unified server side application and maybe that's okay.

The islands architecture, maybe that's okay. And, and this HTMX being another, yeah, there's no one size fits all. I think that's probably, it depends is the right answer here, but.

[00:17:25] Dax: Yeah, I think if I'm, if I'm building something simple and I just want to get something interactive and I don't want to do any client side JavaScript, like, yeah, I would, I would definitely reach for it. It's just not for me personally. It's not a situation that comes up that often. but like I said, definitely see it.

And if you're doing, if you're like getting into OCaml and you want to like learn how to do that and use that, do you really want to build a whole like web development framework around it? Like probably not.

[00:17:47] Robbie: Yeah, there's no danger of me getting into OCaml, so.

[00:17:51] Chuck: heh

[00:17:52] Dax: you never know. You never know. Yeah.

[00:17:55] Chuck: Right, you know,

[00:17:56] Robbie: I'm going to write Ember until I die.

[00:17:58] Chuck: No. Or, until it actually dies, or until you die. And those might be simultaneous. It's like, you'll be the last guy, and you die, and so does it. And there, there it goes.

[00:18:08] Dax: That's, I mean, something dying with you is a great legacy to have, I would, I would like that.

[00:18:13] Chuck: It's not... Yeah, when will we change Tomster to, like, Robster? Robbiester? I don't know, it

[00:18:18] Robbie: Well, that is weird because Tom is gone, so it shouldn't, we shouldn't have Tomster anymore.

[00:18:22] Chuck: Oh, I didn't know he died.

[00:18:23] Robbie: Well, he didn't die. He's not

[00:18:25] Chuck: He died on a pile of money

[00:18:26] Robbie: He did, yeah. No, he's living very well on a pile of money, actually.

[00:18:31] Chuck: well, fair enough. He should move to Miami is what I hear.

Alright, so we'll talk a little bit of tech. We'll talk a little bit of bullshit later. But, uh, so when did you first get involved in the SST project?

[00:18:43] When did Dax get into the SST project

[00:18:43] Dax: So, uh, the project I think came out, it was like in the beginning of the year of 2020, I want to say.

I think it's hard to it's hard to remember whatever beginning of some year in the past, and I was one of the first users because I was so prior to doing all the serverless AWS stuff that I do now.

I was heavily in the elixir world. I just got bored of that at some point. I was like, there's not like much more for me to learn here. So I'm just going to shake it up and try to build things in a different way. found. All these serverless people talking about serverless and like saying all this crazy stuff and some of it just kind of resonated with me.

I was working on something that was like a little bit compliance heavy at the time. And there's a great way to like avoid a lot of the compliance questions when you don't actually manage. things that you're responsible for, which is kind of. Idea behind serverless, started to realize, okay, the experience around this is terrible, started to build my own crappy solution for some of the problems that I ran into just local debugging and kind of making the developer experience good, , then found SST realized, okay, they did this a lot better and they actually have been doing this for a while.

They understand it really well. Uh, so I started using it just as a way to like play around with some of the stuff I was building, built some test projects with it, uh, ended up contributing a lot. Of thought back to it, not in the form of PRs, ,

more in the form of long messages explaining why I think they should rewrite big portions of it and then making them rewrite it.

Uh,

[00:20:05] Chuck: Oh, that was you. Okay.

[00:20:06] Dax: yeah, so I was annoying them. Uh, I might've submitted some PRs, but I think it was mostly me just getting, getting Frank to, to like redo his work.

they were raising a round at that point. Uh, they opened up like 10% of the round they were raising to their users. I ended up investing in the company. Uh, my thought process was, okay.

I believe serverless is gonna be bigger in the future than it is now. And if there's an opportunity to build a product in it, these guys will have, will figure that out, whether it's what they're currently building or something in the, in, in the future, they pivot to, and then, Maybe like a month after, uh, I made that investment, I started to leave the role I was in and I mentioned, Hey, I'm like, I'm leaving and they reached out to me to ask if I wanted to join the team.

And we did, a bunch of just the kind of conversations, maybe like, Oh, we did a lot of conversations. And then we spoke for like hours and hours and hours and hours. And we all really clicked.

So I ended up joining the team and they basically just Gave me my money back except that now I owe taxes on it.

So it was a

[00:21:06] Chuck: Um,

[00:21:08] Dax: uh tax wise and accounting wise, but Yeah,

[00:21:11] Chuck: their, their heart was in the right place. Yeah. I first started, I got introduced to it somewhere in the like 0. 3 days.

I came onto a project to like lead a, a consulting project. And one of the devs is doing a lot of serverless stuff and brought this, Dynamoose and, SST, which, you know, at that point I felt like it was mostly a wrapper around the AWS CDK, and so it essentially, like, just managed setting up infrastructure at that point. Didn't really do much with your project itself. But then also, , C. run was happening then too, which was I mean, this that was like, oh crap, that Hand in hand, this is really nice. Yeah, my only interactions with with Jay and Frank were essentially, I have have problems.

Help me. And then, you know, they're just answering stuff direct. It was pretty, pretty funny. So that was about the time I, I first came up with it. And they had like kind of some of the best docs going versus, uh, you know, the serverless framework. Serverless stack was just running you through getting all this going.

And it continues to be excellent documentation and, and guides too, to like get, get folks started. So

yeah, I'm not sure how it correlates to like your time to join and when c. run was happening and it's still happening, but.

[00:22:20] Dax: Yeah, the history of the company is kind of funny. So they originally, built. So, uh, is the thing referring to seed? that was the idea behind that was a lot of people are using serverless framework. ,

let's build a CI tool plus a little bit more. That was just focused on deploying serverless framework projects.

Uh, when you build a specific CI like that, you can do all kinds of optimizations around like how fast it builds, what it builds, what it deploys and optimizing all that. Uh, and then it kind of. Yeah. Shifted into production questions to around like tracking your logs, like viewing your logs, , Automatically watching for errors and alerting you kind of like how sentry would , so it's like a full product for going from from development to production, what they realized at some point was Okay, even if we literally capture the whole market today That's a pretty good business, but it's not Uh, like a venture scale billion dollar company, uh, because the serverless world is small.

And if we just leave the task of growing it in the hands of the existing frameworks, it's probably not going to grow as fast as we need it to. So they shifted towards building a framework with the idea of, , just making it. So, , companies consider building in this way when, when they're founded, because I think at that point it wasn't on anyone's radar, like building that way to kind of the traditional frameworks.

so just even gets the point of it being something that they consider, uh, was kind of the original goal of, of that framework. And it's obviously grown to a much bigger, more ambitious thing now. Um, but yeah, I think originally, , the website, it was called serverless stack. com. It wasn't even a framework.

I didn't think referring to is, uh, it was just an ebook. Really. It was a guide on how to build, fully serverless applications, because I think, and if I go back to. Yeah. At that time, or like my time before joining, my perception was, oh, that's good for like these little one off little tasks. I need to resize an image.

I'm going to put a lambda function there. Uh, so the guide was around showing people, no, you can actually build your whole application this way. It can be really complex and, you know, here's how to do it and here are the benefits and here's why you should do it. So the guide itself got really popular and there's a ton of traffic.

And at some point, uh, we did ship the framework, put it at the same domain. And that was like our acquisition channel for, for that.

[00:24:32] Chuck: Yeah, which totally makes sense because yes, serverless framework was like the massive player in the space. It's actually what I was using at the time. And SSD essentially just set up infrastructure. The application was serverless framework. But yeah, and like you said, you could, it was. Let's put together an API, let's have your React, and because it was even next at that point, no real meta framework traction, and put the whole thing out in AWS for you, because so many businesses get built upon AWS consoles sucks.

AWS CLI is hard to navigate around. Let's help you do that and make a little money.

[00:25:10] Dax: Yeah, exactly.

[00:25:11] Chuck: But to a degree that brings about the question of like, AWS console sucks so bad and the other tools aren't great that so many companies could be built on top of that. I'll probably just leave Azure to the side because that's self explanatory, but like GCP, is it as shitty and nobody's building a business on top of that, or it's just a mat, a matter of like a math isn't as good.

[00:25:31] Dax: yeah, I would say, uh, I think the cloud business is kind of interesting because I don't believe you can catch up to a company that started before you in the cloud business, because it's just a matter of. Getting bigger and when you get bigger, your cost just gets cheaper when your costs get cheaper. You get more customers, which makes you bigger, which then makes your cost go cheap.

So AWS just started that before everyone else. And even if you build a better product in certain categories to directly compete with them, it's very, very hard. And I think the degree where it

basically subsidizes. Like everything else that they do like it makes our e commerce business look like a side business

Like they make so much money. Yeah, exactly. They make so much money

Google Cloud which has effectively the same product just made a little bit of money for the first time this last quarter so they've been around for a while and they have not been able to make money while a Competitor with the same product is like making ungodly amounts of money, right?

the reality is, is you just got to follow where the money is and the attention is, yes, some people consider using Google cloud. There's a lot of reasons why I personally won't, but the numbers wise AWS has a million customers. So if our goal is to become the default way to build applications on AWS, if we're even moderately successful at that.

That is a huge, huge pool of, of companies and new companies that are constantly being brought in.

building on top of someone else like that is challenging. But you can do it if they're big enough and AWS is really the only one that's big enough today.

[00:27:05] AD SPOT

[00:27:05] Chuck: so really, like, there's probably no near term future where it makes any sense to make SST work well on GCP or Azure.

[00:27:14] Dax: Yeah, and the other side of it on a more technical side is, uh, we are built around the idea of event driven systems, so you define your system as a bunch of events and things that react to events, and AWS is very aligned with that, and they build, they give you primitives that let you do that. Uh, Google cloud is in this weird limbo where they bet hard on kubernetes and container workloads And their cloud is still very geared towards that They're kind of being forced to consider some of the stuff that aws has just to maintain parity But it's not like the thing that they're betting on at least not yet.

They haven't switched over it just doesn't line up with the area that we focus on

[00:27:51] What does SST stand for

[00:27:51] Robbie: Can we regress back for a minute? Just a quick question. What does SST stand for? Is it

[00:27:56] Dax: Whatever you want it,

[00:27:57] Robbie: something?

[00:27:59] Dax: like serverless.

[00:28:00] Chuck: serverless stack. T thing. I don't know.

[00:28:04] Dax: Okay, so the history with this is,

like I said, the guide was called serverless stack. We just shoved the framework under the same domain just to like, get the traffic. But we don't like the name, we didn't like the name for the framework. We didn't have much room to really change it because of the whole SEO thing.

Like, we do get a ton of traffic just from SEO. And I think just making a complete change was difficult. So we just named it after the CLI, which was called SST at the time. And at this point, my stance is it doesn't stand for anything. Uh, people have thrown out some stupid thing, which I kind of like. Uh, some serverless thing.

There's all kinds of weird stuff. I'm thinking that, I don't know if you guys have noticed this, but if you go to NPM on the top, every time you refresh the page, it says it stands for something different. It's randomly generated. I'm like, that's probably what we should go for, because I don't...

I just want people thinking ssd and not thinking about what it what it stands for which is a little weird But I don't know just kind of where we ended up.

[00:28:59] Chuck: How's that gonna affect the swag, though, you know? Like, every swag run has a different definition or something like that, and then you're

like, Oh, I got version two that had a clever thing. Yes.

[00:29:08] Dax: That is cool Neat, it's like nfts, but with serverless.

[00:29:14] Chuck: I'm I'm good at coming up with some swag ideas, so... Uh, I had some for Ryan Carniato, like, about, uh, his, like, solid stuff and making it more like his tattoos and, like, old Dogtown skateboard looking shit. Yeah.

[00:29:27] Dax: Yeah, was he on was he on his podcast?

[00:29:29] Chuck: Yeah, he was. Clearly you're an avid listener. I love, I love inviting people on and then trapping them as like not knowing who we

[00:29:36] Robbie: Yeah. So what was your favorite episode?

[00:29:38] Dax: Yeah.

i'm also i'm also close to ryan So it's like I failed on both parts. I didn't know he was on here and I didn't just from both directions So i'm not a good

[00:29:47] Chuck: we had... That's why I wanted you on. I, I feel like we're spirit animals in a way. I'm also not a good person and so I, I laughed too many times at, at your marketing tweets and I was like, yeah, we should talk to Dex. into that. Plus there's this, I was confused. I thought you were the actor with a really popular podcast too at first.

And so I was like, fuck, well, I guess, I guess he should come on

anyway.

[00:30:11] Dax: blonde hair that one

[00:30:13] Chuck: Who's married to Kristen Bell? Yeah, Anna from Frozen. You seem like a big Disney fan. You're in Florida. You know this is.

[00:30:20] Dax: Yeah.

[00:30:21] Chuck: are you finished with your regression? Robert,

[00:30:23] Robbie: Yeah, I was just wondering the whole time what it was. So I was just curious. Continue

[00:30:27] Chuck: Yeah. uh, conversely, and I know you guys, Do support more than just Next.

js in terms of like the front end framework, but I'm curious like so it was a big push Not that long ago around OpenNext and free Next. js and like sort of getting into the internals and unlocking some of that. So Because obviously Vercel is highly incentivized to make their stuff work the best on their platform right and you guys I mean, for lack of a better term, possibly say like kind of reversed engineered some of that and locked, this library into being able to do that independently.

Is that a correct assumption? Or it's more of what I've inferred and kind of what I've seen there. So

[00:31:10] Dax: No, that's a good

description. Mm hmm.

[00:31:11] Chuck: the power of Vercel, right?

[00:31:13] Dax: Yep, exactly. That's, uh, that's a goal.

[00:31:16] Chuck: Okay. I shouldn't ask a yes or no question. This is a problem. Uh, so I, the first part of it, then do you think that's going to be challenging to constantly Chase that as they evolve, Next.

[00:31:30] OpenNext/Nextjs

[00:31:30] Dax: Yeah, uh, by the way, we hate this project. We hate OpenNext. We hate our time spent on it. the reason we did it is because People just kept asking us to, uh, just over and over people were like, Hey, can you help me deploy next? Yes. Hey, can you help me deploy next? Yes.

Frank even told me that years ago when they were interviewing, so I joined SST right when they were finishing up their YC batch. , so they were interviewing other YC companies and so many of them were just like, help me deploy next Jason AWS. And we just ignored all of that. We did the thing that every, every founder knows, listen to your users. And we just didn't for several years. But eventually this got so annoying. This got so annoying.

They were like, you have to do this. We're like, okay We have enough people within our community that We know Next. js really well. They know AWS pretty well. We don't use Next. js. Of the three of us, me, FrankJ, none of us use Next. js. None of us have ever used Next. js. We will never use Next. js. It is not, it is just not an area of expertise for us.

But we do understand the AWS side really well, obviously. , so we basically worked with our community. We figured... Everyone's there's a bunch of disparate attempts to do this, but there's not anything with like a ton of weight behind it with just awareness of the infrastructure side and just enough people that we're actually using something.

so we started to do it and we spent the effort on it. It was a lot of work. I didn't do any of it by the way. I was just like, Frank, this is your problem. I'm not I'm not even no one even asked me to be honest. I was like, they just knew that I was. It was not not for me. But our next JS channel is like very active and we had a lot of contributions from from people that helped us get there It is extremely tedious.

It is extremely hard to keep up with one intentional changes that Vercel and actually has to make but also just breakages that they do Accidentally like when you actually track it like patch version by patch version like a lots of just breaks randomly between them It is a lot of overhead and we will always be behind to some degree.

We will always be a little bit worse. There's been a few things we found that we can do better just because of our unique positioning, but, in general, it's always going to be a slightly worse experience, but the reality is, uh, and this is kind of very contrary to how Versailles positions themselves, the vast majority of Next.

js users. Next. js isn't the thing they live and die by it's like 10% of their overall system They're not making huge decisions about where they run their stuff just based off of next. js They have a separate back end that might be written in a different language They have their database. They have all kinds of stuff going on.

They have all their asynchronous stuff going on. They've got queues. They've got events, all this stuff going on, and they happen to have a next day as front end, putting that in a different host for a lot of companies. One just is tough. Compliance wise, tough organizationally, and there's like overhead, like just sinking.

Service like pointing to the right services and like keeping that in sync in Brazil. It's just a pain So for most of our users, it's not like that's the thing that they're but they're not they're not working on next year But that's up. It's just a Component of a larger system.

So for them, they just want to put an AWS.

They don't care if it works as good as it would on Brazil. It's like good enough because it's just you know a small piece.

[00:34:34] Chuck: Yeah, and that makes sense. I mean for me like the appeal of Next. js and again I don't live and die by that particular framework or and most things in life anyway, but is that it was just Some sanity in the world of React, right? React is just supposed to, render things, right? The view layer. And then people figured out 47, 000 different ways to make it applications, and everything's a component, or not, or, you know, whatever else, everything in the middle.

And the fact that just a bunch of choices were made for you out of the box, I'm like, Okay, I can live with this. If we're going down this path, I can live with this. And I feel like, for a lot of people, that's probably the sentiment. From Ver Ver Versel's perspective, I'm sure they just want to grab some unicorns that scale and don't want to leave.

Right? Like, that's the intent. They don't care about people doing experiments on there or whatever.

[00:35:22] Dax: It's just a challenging situation because I agree. Like it is a necessary thing. If you're in the react world, you don't really want to be cobbling all this stuff together.

You can, it'll be worse than next. Yes. So obviously if you're going to build a red application, you should just use it. And now it's like even more tightly integrated with how the future, what the future of react looks like.

It's even like tightly integrated into the React docs. a lot of synergy there. , for better or worse. But that, that's, that, that makes sense. , it's a tricky situation for Vercel because of the thing that I was describing where, for big companies It's just not the most critical part of their infrastructure, the companies where it is typically are e commerce companies, e commerce companies, their entire product is the Next.

js site, and they take advantage of every single Next. js feature, all the little optimizations, everything, and if you look at all their, their feature set, it tends to lean that way, so I think there is like a little bit of a mismatch. I don't think it really matters that much. I think it's fine for, for most products.

Next. js Uh, if you're building like a sass application, technically the company that's building for sell

they're a little bit more like focused on like e commerce side because that's where the money comes from for the most part.

[00:36:31] Chuck: Yeah, that tracks. That's why next commerce got released. And you'll Yeah, you see, more efforts and documentation and whatever supportive of that particular application type. So makes sense there. So when we talk about kind of the meta framework and all the decisions made, and we talked a little bit offline about Ember JS, um, And you, you actually are familiar with EmberJS, which is Robbie's home.

I think we, I would love to hear a little bit about, uh, your experience with it. And

[00:37:03] Experience with Emberjs

[00:37:03] Chuck: just, so to clarify, I am a fan of something that I discovered from the ember community so I haven't like like used ember. js directly too much But I think and I might be I'm just misremembering how exactly this connects, but I believe there's something called Ember data, and I believe that has a close tie with JSON API, if I remember correctly, or there's like a nice integration between the two, so I watched a talk, a couple years ago, where, it was at the Ember conference, I think.

[00:37:31] Dax: Someone was describing how they would build an application that would run on a satellite that's orbiting, the moon. So, for certain parts of the day, the application would have no way to connect to the earth. So there's basically like imagine a client that's crazy latency potentially and how would you build an application for them?

and it was showing how you could use this thing called orbit and it's a library. And json and how all those things work together I was mostly interested in the json api part. I found it fascinating because And there's other posts that I read uh, just kind of comparing graphql.

There's a lot of problems that graphql solves Uh very intentionally And those problems seemingly seem impossible to solve without GraphQL. But, when I looked at JSON API, I was realizing, Oh, they actually solved all those same problems, but without deviating too much from, from REST, and all your typical REST tooling still works, and it looks like a normal REST, REST endpoint.

And it basically has, like, everything I cared about from GraphQL, which is mostly, uh, expressing relationships, and like, kind of traversing through relationships. So, yeah, I discovered JSON API, and I was like, why... why is every rest api not modeled this way? Like why do we all make up our own like crappy?

Implementation of red like every single scenario you could possibly think of json api declare where this is how you do it , so to this day when I do This doesn't happen often, but when I build a restful api, I usually typically something that's external facing ,

I will try to follow the json api spec.

I know that's like close ties with the The Ember world.

[00:38:58] Chuck: Yes and no, actually. Uh, I mean, Ember is. Yes, because Yehuda has a tie in both projects. Yehuda is also in Rust and, you're welcome, Robbie. I just teed you up and you got a little validation there.

[00:39:10] Robbie: yeah, yeah, it's

it's

[00:39:12] Chuck: lot of things he's said over and over again. Yeah.

[00:39:15] Robbie: we just talked to Runspire, the guy that's like in charge of Ember data. Uh, his big thing at EmberConf was like, it's, he's gonna, he wants it to be agnostic, like use it in any framework. so it's going to be a thing that people can use in, in whatever soon, hopefully.

And we'll see if anyone picks it up, but, um, I think it'll unlock a lot of stuff if people looked at JSON API and. Some of the way those things work together, as you mentioned, like orbit is great and you can use that in anything right now. Uh, we use that a little bit, but it's a lot more complex.

[00:39:45] Dax: Yeah. I think orbit initially introduced me to the idea of, I wouldn't say it's like a local first type of framework, but the idea is like your client, , basically has, uh, like syncs data and like can query the data directly locally, and you're more just sinking the state with the server.

and the applications I build now are like very much heavily local first, like sinking a lot of data locally, doing as many operations locally as possible. Uh, and Orbit was the first, was the thing that first introduced me to that idea. I was, I was actually really trying to use it heavily, but, If you, like, go back to my tweets, there's a tweet of mine begging them to, like, Create a Slack or, like, a Discord, because they were on some, like, weird, I forgot what it was, just one of those, like, maybe it was Matrix, I don't remember what it was,

[00:40:27] Chuck: Yeah. It was like one of those

get attached,

like

[00:40:30] Dax: oh, yeah, there was a Git one initially, and they Moved it to Matrix while I was, or something like that, while I was, I was looking into it, and I was like, Jason API is great.

I really think if a lot more people knew about this, they would, like, really consider it. can we just, like, have a place, which is what, a place where people are used to going, whether it's Slack or Discord or whatever. and I was trying to get that going, and then it just turned into a debate around, like, the philosophies of, like, corporate chat platforms.

And I was like, okay, okay, I tried. Um. So I eventually was just struggled getting enough support in terms of like other people building this way But I do like philosophy philosophy wise like the actual technology was was fantastic.

[00:41:10] Chuck: I think we have some opportunities offline that we could discuss some of that. We know some of the people in those ecospheres that, I mean, we worked on some of the things, we know the, the, the Orbit JSS guy

[00:41:21] Dax: Yeah, what was his naming? I forgot his name

Yeah

[00:41:24] Robbie: Gebhardt.

[00:41:25] Dax: being a part. Yeah, and then who does sound familiar to I think I follow him on on Twitter. He's a Jason API person

[00:41:30] Chuck: Yeah. White Kats on

[00:41:33] Robbie: Yeah. And he was rails initially, I guess, and jQuery and he's been in a lot of stuff.

yeah, so we'll, we can bounce around, but we'll, we'll go to this, uh, first one here of if you weren't in tech, what other career would you choose?

[00:41:46] What would Dax do if not in tech

[00:41:46] Dax: Oh, man, this is so hard, because I swear that this is the only job I could ever do, and I'm always so grateful that I live in a time where this is a job that I can do. Yeah, that, that's, that's a really tough question. My, my dad's also a software engineer. So, like, you know, if I, like, think about what my family, it's just, it's just, I'm sick of bread for this.

I feel like, not really, like, before my dad, everyone in my family was a farmer for, like, 10, 000 years. So, I guess, not really, like, we shifted in recent history. Man, I don't know. I don't think I've ever I don't think I have an answer for this.

[00:42:19] Robbie: I think, uh, let's clarify and say it has nothing to do with skill or things that you think you could do. Like if you could have any job and just miraculously get that skill, like what do you think would be

[00:42:31] Chuck: Yeah, like, interested in, or what sounds fun, or... Yeah, that's true.

[00:42:35] Dax: That but that's actually what i'm talking about I'm, just like to be honest, like i'm just I just like what I do and I don't really care about anything else I feel like if it was if I didn't have to do this I just wouldn't really want to do anything. I just like building stuff. So any any like

[00:42:50] Chuck: be a construction

[00:42:51] Dax: any well, but I I want to be able to be creative.

I feel like construction workers kind of just like you got to do the

thing

[00:42:56] Chuck: can be creative.

[00:42:57] Dax: That's true an architect architect can be creative. Um I'm, I'm just, yeah, when it comes to like building stuff with my hands, I'm just terrible at it, like I just get way more frustrated when something goes wrong physically than I would with like a software bug.

so even like building stuff physically, I'm just... Yeah, I'm I'm like screwed. I think if this job

goes

[00:43:17] Chuck: you weren't born at this

[00:43:18] Dax: yeah,

[00:43:19] Chuck: it would have been real rough.

Uh, you would have been like, uh, would you like to supersize that?

[00:43:26] Dax: Exactly, I mean I do like business I just love like all aspects of building a company everything just from Organizing the company like strategy like marketing all of that. Uh, so I think I would have still end up of I ended up a founder of some sort, just maybe Less useful than I am today.

[00:43:46] Chuck: Different capacity, but still business minded. Um, so since you are rich adjacent, um, have you noticed any differences so far since you've become Lionel Messi's neighbor?

[00:44:00] Dax: Well, have you guys seen those pictures of him in the grocery store,

[00:44:03] Chuck: Yeah, of course. I'm a, I'm a big soccer, football fan. So I watch a lot of European soccer and was very interested in that. Like I'm a David Beckham fan from

way back in the day. Cause Manchester United in the nineties was like the shit for me. Cause

I'm old and that was normal time. so, you know, I'm very aware, but I didn't know if you have noticed anything.

And if soccer is a thing you're interested in or

[00:44:26] Dax: Yeah, it's definitely not something I'm, I've been interested in. I can see myself getting a lot more interested in just because it's getting a lot more exciting locally. Uh, that grocery store thing was crazy because I've struggled to explain this correctly, but. The grocery store he went to is like, the grocery store you would go to as a kid with your parents when they forced you to go to the grocery store with them.

It was like, like just like the most local grocery store that everyone has a memory of going to and then seeing him there With no like entourage or bodyguard. It's like very very weird for people here They're like just like in the aisles of like the public's like what that's so weird

Yeah

[00:45:04] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's why he chose here versus Saudi Arabia. He's like, I need some level of anonymity for my family. Like my wife is sick of it. It's time.

[00:45:15] Robbie: yeah.

[00:45:16] Dax: I don't think they got that

[00:45:18] Robbie: he can tell people he's a football player and they'll go, Oh, and have no idea what he's talking about. Cause it's America.

[00:45:23] Chuck: Yeah. Cause he's like five, eight, five, seven, five, eight, something

[00:45:27] Dax: Yeah, I guess you could overlook him if you're not like really paying attention I I can see that happening the thing though is he picked miami Which in a lot of ways is like not in america Like when you when you're here, it almost feels like you're in a different country And there are a lot of soccer soccer fans here.

So yeah, it's a huge deal. Everyone's really excited Uh ticket prices are are insane. Like they're like unattainable all of a sudden.

[00:45:50] Robbie: More or less than Taylor Swift.

[00:45:52] Chuck: right.

[00:45:53] Dax: I mean

I heard taylor swift is like impacting the economy. So I don't

think it's like that scale, but

[00:45:59] Chuck: I know across, like, MLS and the associated, like, season tickets and things like that, like, a 30 match ticket has turned into, like, a 1, 000 match ticket. Like, uh, uh, I'm from, like, the Cincinnati area, and some good friends of mine have season tickets there, and they all, for a moment, hesitated.

They're like, I don't know, this thing, like, I could resell this, and... You could also just go see him, because it didn't cost you 1, 000, so...

[00:46:23] Dax: oh, so yeah, it's increasing the prices everywhere because when he's he's there for away games,

oh That is crazy

[00:46:29] Chuck: game is like, shot up in price like crazy amounts.

[00:46:33] Dax: That's amazing. And that first game was also Like couldn't have asked for a better better opening. So

yeah, it's been

[00:46:40] Chuck: to like win in the 93rd minute or

[00:46:43] Dax: Yeah

[00:46:43] Chuck: and with an incredible free kick. And they're like, that's why I'm here. Well, you know, welcome. They're building like basically the Galacticos too in Miami. So they're, uh, yeah, they're recruiting other former teammates of his. And so how is this even possible?

[00:46:59] Dax: I did see. I mean, there's a lot of money here. That's how it goes. I mean, David Beck, you said David Beckham. He's like a very involved. He owns inter Miami or like

[00:47:04] Chuck: He's a part owner. Yeah. That was part of his deal back in like 2007 is that he basically had a locked in price to

[00:47:10] Dax: Oh, I

[00:47:11] Chuck: team. And so he was like, okay. And then, you know, because the, the fee, there was a couple of different stipulations that apply later on that didn't apply to him

because he just had a contract that said I'm locked in at like 30 million versus 60 million for someone now or something of that nature.

[00:47:29] Dax: Yeah, and I think they, uh, he's working. I think he just got everything finally improved that they're building a new stadium as well, uh, and the plans for it. Look, look, really cool. They're actually putting a lot of work on the surrounding area and not just the stadium itself. Uh, yeah, so it's definitely exciting.

Exciting time.

[00:47:43] Chuck: Yeah, if nothing else, making this boring place called, uh, what is it? Mi Miami? Mi Miami? I don't know. Some place in Florida that doesn't have a, uh, a mouse. A lot of Art Deco buildings, you

[00:47:57] Dax: Yeah, yeah, we we got we got f1 like that came here in the past couple years now, yeah lots happening

[00:48:04] Chuck: That's cool. Do you have any other hobbies, other than writing code and

Twitter?

[00:48:08] Dax: No, I have I have I spent a lot of time with my dog like he's a he's a Doberman that needs a lot of attention

Yeah,

[00:48:15] Chuck: I did see that. So... I do like those dogs. They're badass looking, so it's kind of a nice thing. I'm allergic to, like, everything, but, uh, If I was to get a dog, something like that or larger would be in my

[00:48:28] Dax: Yeah, I, I love, I think this is the first time I've had a Doberman. I think I'm probably going to have them forever now because they're just. Such a well rounded dog, like very calm for the most part, but they're like, they're still big. So they're fun. Like a big dog is fun. there's like great personality, super smart.

Uh, so there's just a lot that we can do with him given. Like he's like a smart dog, there's a lot you can do. Uh, so we spent a good time there. I'm trying to, I'm trying to get into, I was saying this this morning. I was trying to get, I'm trying to get into kiteboarding, kitesurfing. Um, which is pretty challenging.

So I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna spend like several months getting good at it. But I'm trying to like start going to classes and stuff. But yeah, I figured, hey, I actually live by the water now. So I can do all these water things that I never considered before. Yeah,

[00:49:13] Robbie: How do you practice kite surfing? Like what if it's not windy? Can you get

[00:49:17] Dax: I have no idea. I'll

go to my I'll go to my first class and I'll find out I think I just don't think you Need a lot of wind because it's such a big kite and it flies up so much higher than the person But there are like conditions that are required, but I think they're they're pretty forgiving I did find out though that I can't just go buy a Buy the equipment is like paddle out like you actually need to pass a test to show that you're capable of XYZ things Uh, before you're, of course you can go there and no one will catch you, but technically you're supposed to, like, pass licensing and stuff, so it definitely is like a, a serious thing, but, yeah, I wanna, I wanna put an effort to get good at it, cause I think once you're good at something like that, it's just like, it's just fun to be able to do that whenever, whenever you feel like it.

[00:49:58] Chuck: Yeah, if you're gonna be by the water, you have to, like, get a sailboat or get a water hobby, I think,

[00:50:03] Dax: Yeah, I would love to have a boat one day, but, you know, it's just one of those things where I'm still in the phase of it's better to know someone that has a boat than to, than to own a boat. One day I will own a boat, but,

[00:50:14] Chuck: Yeah, you know what they say about boats and other things. I'm not going to say it on this, on air. Sorry.

[00:50:21] Dax: Very expensive.

[00:50:23] Chuck: There you go. We'll just go with that. Better, better to rent it. Yes.

[00:50:28] Robbie: I know what you're gonna say There's a lot of things you could have said but I get what you're saying

But yeah, I think it's always better to like have someone else that owns the boat You don't have to do the maintenance on it. You don't have to drive it. You just ride on it like

[00:50:39] Dax: Yeah, there's so many boats here. Like it's hard not to have a boat friend here. Like, it's just very, very easy to, I guess, like, like I've been saying, rich, adjacent,

[00:50:48] Chuck: Yeah, yeah. Where did you move from?

[00:50:50] Dax: Uh, so the last 10 years I was in New York, which is where I met my wife. We worked at a company together. it was had a product that was head of engineering. Uh, and then, uh, so, but she's originally from Miami, and she was living in New York for, say, their total of four or five years. And then, uh, I actually really wanted to come down here. Like once I started coming down here and visiting her family, I would say here in the. In the winter, um, I was like, we're coming, we're moving here full time, I don't care if New York was your dream, like, this is clearly where we're supposed to be. Uh, but she eventually came around to the idea, and now we're both very happy here.

[00:51:27] Chuck: Yeah, you can touch fake grass, I mean, you've got the ocean, it's, uh,

[00:51:31] Dax: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, my front and backyard are... Entirely Asal turf, which I always wanna clarify for people, was not my decision. Like, you can make fun of me for having fake grass, but know that it wasn't a choice I made. It just is how my house came and it was not my decision and I would

[00:51:50] Chuck: I have, I have real grass, and I live in the desert, and it's not supposed to be here, so I'm, I'm conflicted the other way around, right? Like, I like, uh, natural landscaping, and in the back we have it just cause I have small kids, but otherwise I would have fake grass, or like, xeriscaping, like, everywhere, cause I hate wasting all the water.

[00:52:09] Dax: Yeah. And I, I don't, it's not like aesthetically, I don't, I don't love like the manicure lawn as much anymore, so. Yeah, I don't know exactly what I would do. I think I would just do something crazy in the front yard.

[00:52:19] Chuck: I feel like that's like a white picket fence, Midwest kind of

[00:52:22] Dax: I literally have a white picket fence too.

[00:52:25] Chuck: Ha ha ha ha ha! Yeah, well, there you go. That's, that's fair. You're, you're halfway to the dream.

[00:52:31] Dax: Yeah, exactly.

[00:52:32] Robbie: Cool. Uh, we are about at time. Is there anything we missed talking about, uh, anything you want to plug before we end?

[00:52:40] Dax: Not really. I just want to do these things. I always like to come hang out and chat. So yeah, I think I'm definitely good on, on that note.

[00:52:47] Chuck: Covered your basis for the

[00:52:48] Dax: Yeah. Yeah. We talked about SST. I did. I can count it as this was work technically.

[00:52:53] Chuck: There you go, yeah. Just put, put this on your billable. Frank, you better pay him. Boop,

[00:52:59] Robbie: All right, cool. Uh, thanks everyone for listening. If you liked it, please subscribe, leave us some ratings and reviews. We appreciate it. And we will catch you next time.

[00:53:08] Chuck: boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.

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