The Primeagen is known for embracing controversy. He returns to the podcast for a conversation on a range of topics like masculinity, social media, and pornography. He also opens up about his father’s passing and his journey growing up with a single mother.
Michael Paulson aka The Primeagen, Software Engineer at Netflix, is an influential figure in the tech community. He shares his thoughts on React's evolution and the impact it has on web applications and offers a behind-the-scenes look at the inner workings of Netflix and the problem-solving initiatives he led. He also discusses social media use and explains how he leverages platforms like Twitter, Twitch, and YouTube to express his thoughts while fostering an engaging online community.
In this episode, The Primeagen talks to Robbie and Chuck about his views on frameworks like React, the perils of pornography, and how he is saving Netflix millions of dollars.
- [01:06] - Introduction to The Primeagen.
- [03:48] - A whiskey review - Spirits of French Lick William Dalton Single Barrel Bourbon.
- [13:40] - Tech hot takes.
- [44:16] - The Primeagen talks about limiting social media use.
- [56:05] - What The Primeagen would do if he wasn’t in tech.
- [01:01:52] - The Primeagen’s take on pornography.
- [01:17:36] - The influence of The Primeagen's father's passing.
- [01:21:15] - How The Primeagen saved Netflix millions of dollars.
[18:50] - “It feels like React, at this point, is in this state where it’s the industry standard, but I don’t feel like people are happy with it.” ~ The Primeagen
[24:45] - “When people start relying on you as some sort of open source provider, you do still have some level of obligation.” ~ The Primeagen
[35:26] - “The thing about Bun is that I really like it. It’s just not 1.0.” ~ The Primeagen
- The Primeagen YouTube
- The Primeagen Twitter
- The Primeagen Twitch
- The Primeagen Instagram
- Spirits of French Lick William Dalton Single Barrel Bourbon
- Stitzel-Weller Distillery
- Pappy Van Winkle
- W.L. Weller Antique
- David Heinemeier Hansson
- Warren Buffering
- Voodoo Doughnut
- Node JS
- The Dvorak Keyboard
Connect with our hosts
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This show is brought to you by Ship Shape. Ship Shape’s software consultants solve complex software and app development problems with top-tier coding expertise, superior service, and speed. In a sea of choices, our senior-level development crew rises above the rest by delivering the best solutions for fintech, cybersecurity, and other fast-growing industries. Check us out at shipshape.io.--- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/whiskey-web-and-whatnot/message
These transcripts were generated by AI and we don't always have time to edit them, so please excuse any errors.
[00:00:00] Robbie What's going on everybody? Welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot with your hosts Robert William Wagner and Charles William Carpenter the second.
[00:00:14] Chuck: That's right. I'm moving up the ranks. I can't wait to be a senior Charles William Carpenter. , but I just haven't met all my milestones yet. You know, I'm trying to mentor more.
[00:00:25] Robbie: Yeah, all right. We have a special guest today, second time guest, The Primogen. What's going on?
[00:00:31] Primeagen: Hello, hello, thank you for having me yet again. I'm surprised after the first one, you let it happen again. I mean, this is shocking for me, okay?
[00:00:38] Robbie: Oh
[00:00:39] Chuck: You, uh, you're under the misnomer that we have high standards, so.
[00:00:44] Primeagen: worry. But, you know, it was once said of me that I come with nothing and leave everything. My standards are exceptionally low, so...
[00:00:52] Chuck: Perfect.
[00:00:53] Primeagen: Not to insu Actually, that could be an insult for you guys. Don't worry, my standards are low enough for you.
[00:00:59] Chuck: You just say yes to anyone who sends you free booze. I
[00:01:01] Primeagen: Yeah, I know. I was like, wait, there's whiskey involved? What do you want
[00:01:04] Robbie: yeah.
[00:01:05] Chuck: Well, right, exactly. Well, on the off chance that our listener, uh, didn't happen to listen to the other episode, , and you need to let them know who you are and what you do.
[00:01:15] Primeagen: Sure, uh, the name's The Primogen. Very odd name. I say that at the end of every YouTube video. Uh, I guess probably the la a big change since the last time we chatted. I'm probably now best known under a separate moniker, which is The Prime Time. Uh, I don't really go by it on any platform, but it's my second YouTube channel, which is now more popular in views than my main channel, where I just read articles.
So I'm not sure exactly how that has happened. But I just, you know, one day decided I was going to read some articles because, you know, we all don't read articles, just the headlines. And I was like, I'm going to do this for YouTube. And it's just, that's how people know me now. So I guess I'm just an article Andy.
I just read articles on the internet.
[00:01:56] Chuck: That's pretty funny. You should get sponsored by that drink. That, that drink Prime, or whatever. I'm not sure, I think it's an energy drink or
[00:02:03] Primeagen: Yeah, it is an energy drink. If I'm not mistaken, Congress has actually tried to ban it once. I don't know if I want to necessarily be on either side of whatever that
[00:02:14] Robbie: Well, let's clarify because there are two drinks. There's an energy drink and like a hydration version. The hydration version is very good I don't know if it's good for you, but there's no caffeine in it So the one with like five times the caffeine of Red Bull is the one they're trying to get rid of cuz like yeah
[00:02:31] Chuck: on too much caffeine in one sitting, I guess. I don't know. Um, well.
[00:02:35] Primeagen: I hear that. So my big rule of thumb, just so I know this, I know this is off topic, but it's not off topic. I think part of being a peak dev is being Conscious of your health and so that's technically the real reason is, you know, artificial sweeteners a time and time again come up as probably bad for you.
Uh, they had a study that showed two generations in rats afterwards had heightened anxiety problems from their parents drinking artificial sweeteners. I don't know. I don't trust it. So artificial sweeteners. Too much sugar, too much caffeine. I love coffee, though. I've been drinking half caff coffee and yerba mate.
I'm kind of yerba mate'd up right now, in
[00:03:11] Chuck: Ooh, I love mate. Alright, we'll have to get into that too, because I want to get into, a little bit later, I want to get into not only your status as a streamer, but sort of the stance you've taken on tech twitter. Again, for like, advocating for good health, advocating for like, uh, good moral standards, being a weirdo and like, loving your family, kids, and wife, and all that fun stuff.
[00:03:34] Primeagen: I'm a bit antithetical. I get in a lot of trouble. I get called a lot of bad words for saying these things. Which is a little surprising. But anyways, we can get to all of that. You
[00:03:43] Chuck: authentic self.
[00:03:45] Robbie: All right,
[00:03:46] Whisky intro
[00:03:46] Chuck: Perfect. That's what, that's what we're here for. So let's go with the whiskey then. Let's, uh, clearly you're feeling a little nervous. You know, we need to get into a little whiskey and, uh, loosen you up a bit. Today we're having the Spirits of French Lick, William Dalton. Single barrel weeded bourbon.
Uh, so this one's gonna be a little hotter. It's a 110. 84 proof. Aged 4. 5 years. Um, mine is barrel 779. I'll assume you got the same,
[00:04:12] Robbie: mm hmm
[00:04:13] Chuck: or take.
[00:04:13] Robbie: they did a barrel
[00:04:14] Chuck: mash bill.
[00:04:15] Robbie: I would assume it's all from the same
[00:04:17] Chuck: that's true. Yeah, that's true. Um, okay. Hey, listen. Don't ruin the flow. Mash bill is 70 percent corn, 20 percent wheat, and 10 percent malt.
so it's two row caramel malted barley. not really sure about that, but the note that I found about it is it's inspired by an old Stitzel Weller weeded bourbon mash bill. Stitzel Weller was like a huge, uh, distillery right in Louisville. It was really big for things like old Fitzgerald in the 50s, 60s, and 70s.
So the fun thing is the master distiller at Stitzel Weller was Pappy Van Winkle. Now known, you know, as the branding and everything else for, yeah. Because what they did, that's how they started that bourbon. His grandson, son, grandson, something like that, bought a bunch of like old, steel barrels full of like old Fitzgerald that they couldn't sell at the time, like through the nineties and early 2000s.
So he like takes that. starts bottling it, brands it as this Pappy Van Winkle thing, catches on with, like, chefs and celebrities and all this kind of stuff, and then, whiskey's ruined. But anyway, I digress. Let's give this a shot.
[00:05:26] Primeagen: Alright, yeah. I put, I put a couple ice cubes in mine. Okay, I don't know if that is, I don't know if I have become unsanctimonious for you guys. I don't even think I used the right term.
[00:05:35] Chuck: Listen, unlike you and Golang, I don't judge.
[00:05:39] Primeagen: Oh, gosh. Bubblicious
[00:05:42] Robbie: This smells like grape Hubba Bubba to me.
[00:05:47] Chuck: Wow, that is very specific. And we were talking about... Random old snack foods. Does Hubba Bubba still? Bubbalicious exists. I've seen that.
[00:05:57] Robbie: it's Bubba. Let's just the
[00:05:58] Primeagen: does exist, as I've purchased it for my kids 9, 000 times.
[00:06:01] Chuck: Perfect. It's great.
[00:06:03] Primeagen: Oh, this is great whiskey! Last time I thought it was way too spicy for my, you know, for me. I'm a little bit... You know, I'm not sure what the right term is. So I'm pretty weak on the whiskey explanations, but I know that there's definitely like a flavor range.
Like when I drink a Blattons, it doesn't have that strong burn
[00:06:19] Chuck: Yeah. It's 90 proof, so it's a little, little weaker than this would be.
[00:06:23] Primeagen: And then I drink like some Japanese whiskeys and I have like a hard time finishing them And I think there's something there's something that's different that I don't know how to qualify I'm not sure if it's the pass amount or what they do or how they do it But there's some that I find very harder to drink and some I find much easier to drink and this one I could Accidentally like say something bad because I could drink way too much of this and you know what father in law
[00:06:47] Chuck: Oh, man, please tell me we're going to get there. Uh, yeah, I mean, basically to broadly answer your statement, essentially many things are different. I feel like we sent you a rye last time or something else. So we would have a mash bill that includes mostly rye. Uh, so essentially it's going to be a big part of it are the grains they put together to go ahead and create the beer.
, this one is weeded, so it essentially means it's mostly corn but includes wheat in the mash bill, which makes it a little bit sweeter. So you've got corn and wheat both in there, they're going to kind of give you that sweetness.
[00:07:20] Primeagen: It does. I was about to say it reminds me of an onion. I wouldn't call this sweet. I wouldn't call an onion sweet. But they say the sophisticated ham and pineapple pizza is sausage and onion because the onion gives it that sweet. The ham, instead of ham, instead of tearing of the pizza, instead of the raw pulling, you have the more break apartable sausage.
That is like the more sophisticated version of that. And I feel like, I feel, I feel that. Which is that I feel the sweetness but I wouldn't call it sweet.
[00:07:49] Chuck: yeah, yeah, that's fair. Um, yeah, and I agree on the pineapple pizza. And I...
[00:07:55] Robbie: You don't like
[00:07:56] Chuck: Love pineapple pizza. No, I love it. I think
[00:07:58] Primeagen: do. I, I'll eat it. If it's there, I'll eat it. I have no problems with it.
[00:08:02] Chuck: I'd like to add a little spice to it, too, to really kind of round out the umami there. So put some jalapenos or something on it. Oof, yeah, that's perfect.
[00:08:09] Primeagen: you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw something at you right now. It's gonna, it's gonna, it's gonna trip you up for a moment, but just stay with me, okay? Start using Serranos instead. Now, here's the reason why. Is that a Serranos Low Heat Index
[00:08:23] Chuck: Mmm,
[00:08:23] Primeagen: is nearish the midway to high point of a jalapeno.
And the high point is slightly above the high point of a jalapeno with a jalapeno. Either you have like green pepper spice. Or you have like, oh my gosh, I'm going to die. Whereas a serrano is just like near that more, oh my gosh, I'm going to die, but then it's also lowered into like, oh, this is pretty good.
Right? So it's like, I feel like I get a consistent spice. I know how much to put on it. I don't overdo it. I don't underdo it. I get it right every time. I want to make a thing of guacamole. One, serrano's nice. Gives it a little bite. Two, if I want to feel a little adventurous, right? Like, I know what I'm doing.
I kind of, kind of, I can kind of walk through it.
[00:09:01] Chuck: that's a great pro tip. I love that. My, my next pineapple pizza will include that and... Sausage, not ham.
[00:09:09] Primeagen: you. Ooh, sausage is a good one, you know. But sausage and onions, it's a very different flavor, right? It's a different mode. It's, you know, I feel like pineapple and, and ham. I'm out there. It's a fun pizza. I'm having fun. It's, it's a more expressive pizza. The flavors all kind of kick at each other versus kind of being together.
[00:09:27] Chuck: Yes, yes. I love this. Alright, I'm going to bring you back to the whiskey though, because you said you really like it. And, you may or may not remember the tentacle scale 0 to 8, because engineers need 0 based. so
[00:09:41] Primeagen: Is eight inclusive?
[00:09:43] Chuck: I mean, Aiden is inclusive to everything you want it to be, or as little as you want it to be.
so meaning like, we're gonna separate this out probably into bourbons, maybe even weeded bourbons, and rate against other ones like that. I think you should consider it from just a drinkability standpoint, like, would you, yeah. Like, would you drink this on a regular basis, however frequently that is, there's no judgment here.
And, you know, if you were having a drink, would you just, just pick this and not even think about it, or would you maybe survey a couple of options, consider what you're eating, and all that kind of stuff, and then put it somewhere in the middle? I don't know, there's a lot of ways you can go with it.
[00:10:20] Primeagen: Well, I, I, I mean I have a take if I, if I, if I can go, so hold on, so I just want to make sure I can rate it either from 0 to 8, the classic 9 tentacle octopus
[00:10:30] Chuck: Exactly. Well. Uh, in a recent show, because I had read this recently, so, octopi regenerate, and it's possible for them to regenerate more than one of a lost limb. So there can be nine.
[00:10:44] Primeagen: Nice.
[00:10:44] Chuck: Hmm.
[00:10:45] Primeagen: Well, that's, that's, that's, I didn't realize that. Okay, so this is, this is a formal octopus rating. Okay. I, I get it. Alright, um, I really like this one. I would most certainly drink it without hesitation. And so I'm not sure where that falls onto that, because again, I do not have a sophisticated, uh, whiskey or cigar palette.
I've, I've tried to work a little bit more on my cigar palette than my whiskey palette, but I would say that this is a good one. I, I would put it somewhere in maybe the six to seven range. Maybe, maybe mid six would be a good place for me to be.
[00:11:17] Chuck: fair. I think that's a good place to go with it. how are you feeling about this, Robbie?
[00:11:21] Robbie: Yeah, I feel kind of the same. I think, um, the Weller, I forget the names of all of them. The antique one was a weeded one,
[00:11:29] Chuck: Yeah, the 107, yeah. It's got a maroon label,
[00:11:32] Robbie: think that one was one of the best ones and I think it was a little better than this and I think it was like a seven so I'm going to say, yeah, six or so.
[00:11:40] Chuck: Fair enough. I'm gonna talk a little bit about flavor. It's funny that you mentioned cigars just because when I smelled it, I smelled a little bit of sweetness and a little bit of like, I was almost gonna say like, Leaf tobacco or something, not necessarily like chew or something like that that you put, but you know, if you smell a new cigar, I could actually pick up some of that in the scent.
and then I get, I tend to get kind of a burnt sugar in its flavor. sweetness in that sense, I guess, a nuanced sweetness. Uh, I really like it, I think it's very good. Again, uh, it's good that you brought that up, probably the whole Antique 107. which I used to have as one of my regular sippers, especially when I could buy it for 30 to 35.
Now it's a hundred plus. So it's accessibility kind of makes it, you know, it annoys me about it to triple my price and give me the same product. But so, this one I'm enjoying, I'm going to give this one a seven. I enjoy it quite a bit as is. , so it's really good and neat. I could see maybe a couple of drops of water doing something for it, for me.
I don't even remember how much it was, but, uh, you know, money's no object, of course, at this show. We're just rolling in it. And, uh,
[00:12:47] Primeagen: podcast
[00:12:47] Chuck: classy. Right, exactly. So much podcast money. I mean, our listener sends us, like, a regular check, and it's, uh, we appreciate it. Thank you, listener. Um, yeah, solid seven for me.
That's where I'm going with it. What, uh, 10 out of 10 would have again?
[00:13:04] Robbie: Yeah, that, uh, reminds me of the, one of the more recent shop talk show episodes. They were like, we've introduced a lifetime subscription for 38, 000. Just email me directly if you'd like to do
[00:13:17] Chuck: ha ha ha! Uh, that
[00:13:19] Primeagen: one quick interruption. Did my, did my Windows Alert go off? I stream, I stream in video from Windows. Did it go off? Did you hear it?
[00:13:27] Chuck: Uh, I, I don't know,
[00:13:29] Primeagen: it would have been very obvious if you heard it. It's either a yes or
[00:13:31] Chuck: Badoom boom! Badoom boom! Was that that thing? No? Okay. I think we're good.
[00:13:35] Primeagen: Because it was really loud.
[00:13:36] Chuck: No. Yeah, no. Nothing very loud for me,
[00:13:39] Primeagen: Okay. Just want to make sure, by the way, just want to out myself now.
I use Windows for video. Windows for video, everybody, because I have things that run on Windows or Mac,
[00:13:48] Chuck: Mm hmm.
[00:13:48] Primeagen: don't like Macs.
[00:13:50] Chuck: Hmm.
[00:13:51] Robbie: Hmm.
[00:13:51] Chuck: This is a hot take. We're going right into hot takes right now. So you would rather work on a Windows computer,
[00:13:56] Robbie: For video, do you mean, so are you coding in windows? Okay.
[00:14:00] Chuck: Is there any other things? Just the one that you see, you just have one activity. So,
[00:14:05] Primeagen: video and video games, to be,
[00:14:07] Chuck: Why? Because you've been kind of trapped there though, right? I mean, it's really hard to not
[00:14:12] Primeagen: you're playing windows pretty much. Or Xbox.
[00:14:15] Chuck: Yeah, so, that's kind of like a bummer about the whole thing. Yeah, it's essentially why I have a Windows machine. I mean, officially for testing purposes, because, you know, I'm a responsible web developer who
[00:14:27] Robbie: Yeah. Everyone tests every system in browser.
[00:14:30] Chuck: Yeah, I just need a really strong video card for my browsers. It's just, that's just coincidental.
[00:14:35] Primeagen: You just need a four a d t I, uh, to render Twitter. I mean, I get it. I'm right there with you.
[00:14:41] Chuck: Mm hmm, exactly.
[00:14:42] Primeagen: Th they're not optimized. It, it really slows down performance if you don't have the TI edition.
[00:14:49] Chuck: Okay. Good to know. Good to know. I'll upgrade. I'm gonna put that on the, on the expense. Uh, so, my first hot take then is Twitter or X?
[00:14:57] Primeagen: uh, you know, honestly, I'm one of those people I, I. Again, this probably gets to your earlier part about me having those takes about family and healthy life. I just don't care.
[00:15:08] Chuck: Yeah.
[00:15:09] Primeagen: Really. I don't have time in my life to be upset about someone else's decision when I can. I mean, I can still go to twitter. com like it really actually doesn't even like stop me in any sense.
My icon updated. That was a little hard to get used to on the phone. I'd like find it differently, but it just doesn't. I don't know these. I just have to have more in life to be upset about than someone's naming decision. Now, like obviously if they would have named it. No, actually, I don't think, besides for like some offensive name
[00:15:37] Chuck: Like, mur murderingchildren. com.
[00:15:40] Primeagen: Hotsexnow. com, I'd be like, I can't open this app. This is inappropriate. You know, like I couldn't do that now, you know, but it's just like it's not available, right? It just doesn't bother me. So I know I literally have no opinions other than you I guess my opinion is you shouldn't have an opinion because it doesn't really affect you.
[00:15:57] Chuck: Yeah, and, and the sense is, is that if you dug into the CEO or owner of many companies that you probably freely give money to, you probably wouldn't like what you found and you choose to be like blissfully ignorant about. Most people do. And the only reason why people have this is because he's very, you know, outspoken on this platform.
[00:16:22] Primeagen: you get a bit more of a direct line There was I mean like to be fair one of Google's executives had a overdue an overdose death charge Due to a prostitute on a yacht, right? so like, you know, there's things you can be guilty of and I feel like Cocaine and hookers is probably, you know, like, that's pretty far up there, and so, you know, like, if you look into anybody, like, the thing is, is that we all morally think that we stand on some sort of high ground.
But not one of us has a billion dollars, like that's the reality. Like the life you live as a billionaire is vastly different than the life you live as just a normal person that's forced to go to work, that has to do things. Uh, there's this story, I happen to personally know someone named Greg Gianforte.
Ran from Montana, I knew him through a mutual friend. And he became a billionaire because he sold his company to Oracle. Right now Technologies became Oracle, and that's how he became a billionaire. And he said the difference is that he can no longer effectively make friends. Because once you go from a nobody to somebody, everybody's trying to get something from you.
So it's like, I, I try not to judge too hard, because I've never sat in that position. I'd like to think I'd be a moral, upstanding, great individual, that continues to believe the things I believe now, but the reality is I've just never walked that walk. And it's hard for me to
[00:17:38] Chuck: that's a fit Yeah, I think it's a completely fair take because it's easy for, to pass judgment in the position that you are right now. I think this is a good time to take a quick, you know, momentary break and a shout out to our sponsor, Google cloud provider. Um, I'm just kidding.
[00:17:54] Primeagen: so sorry. I, I'm so
[00:17:56] Robbie: No, just kidding.
[00:17:58] Primeagen: You can edit out the previous part, honestly.
[00:18:00] Robbie: he's just kidding. He's just
[00:18:02] Chuck: Oh, no, I'm just kidding.
[00:18:07] Primeagen: I was like, oh my goodness, I did it wrong.
[00:18:09] Robbie: No, no, you're fine. You're fine.
[00:18:10] Chuck: No, no, we would have given you a good alley oop on that. Um, sorry, maybe you should take the next
[00:18:18] Robbie: Oh, my God.
[00:18:19] Chuck: Robbie.
[00:18:20] Java and react
[00:18:20] Robbie: Oh, yeah. Everything went out of my brain when that happened. But, um, something that I thought was interesting that you had posted, Was that React is the new Java. What does that mean exactly? Like Java means bad, right? Or
[00:18:36] Primeagen: I would say that you have you ever seen the cartoon that draws all the programming languages and Java's like the buttoned up suit guy, C sharps, like the guy still wearing pleated pants and all of that, you know, like each one kind of has
[00:18:48] Chuck: side note. Yeah,
[00:18:49] Primeagen: It kind of feels like react at this point is in this state where it's the industry standard.
But I don't feel like people are happy with it. Like, I don't feel like people are excited about it.
They just, it's, you know, like, I made, I, I accidentally made a meme about two months before React server components were announced, where it's like, a dev who just got done, or like, celebrating React 19. I didn't realize they were on 17 going to 18.
I thought they were already on 18. So I misstepped the numbering system. But React, you know, a dev celebrating React 19. And it was, Lieutenant Dan from... Forrest Gump, who has all the confetti on him but looking really sad. It's just like that, right? You have an application. If you are working at any company that was invented before yesterday... You are working probably with classes still in react. Then you have some hooks mixed in, you have some unsafe underscore componentWillUpdate methods that you're doing that you don't call setState on because we all know it won't work, right? Like you just like, there's like 9,000 things you're working on and that's the state of life.
It is the industry standard, but at the exact same time, I don't see people like genuinely as excited about it. Unless if you can totally greenfield it.
And, you know, greenfielding is not everyone, most people don't work on greenfield projects. Most people work on React from 4 years ago, 5 years ago, 6 years ago.
[00:20:07] Robbie: Yeah, I think that's true with any framework though. Like people aren't excited about an app that's five years old. Cause there's a lot of tech debt and stuff you have to fix in there. And like, it's not as fun as building a new thing. And like, I don't even know what people use these days, but you know,
[00:20:23] Chuck: that's just the rate of like front end development where like all of these things are like 10 years or less old to begin with and shiny new thing is always happening because they're inventing it on the fly and, you know, this will, this will kind of go into a question I think we, we can talk about later, which is just about like, what is a web application?
What is the baseline that we need for a web application these days? You know, do we need, All of this logic in a browser anymore, and if we do, what does that look like? Maybe there's a like fresh take there, but
[00:20:58] Primeagen: I have a lot of takes on that, don't worry. I'm storing them up!
[00:21:02] Ripping typescript out of codebases
[00:21:02] Chuck: okay, fair enough. so on the heels of, of things like that, um, what do you think about everyone ripping TypeScript out of their codebases?
[00:21:11] Primeagen: Well, that's, that's an overstatement. Um, there's really only two major things that have ripped TypeScript out of their application, and they did so in very different ways.
I've caught a lot of flack on this one. Despite, I think I got grouped in with other people, I actually agreed with them ripping out TypeScript.
So, hey. Don't shoot the messenger, but, you know, like, I agreed with them, actually, I'm not the messenger, I am the, I am the Relevator, or whatever they call it, the Revelator, uh, I am the person saying these things, uh, so, first off, it was, Svelte and DHH were the big, The big ones spelt ripped out TypeScript, but replaced it with JS Doc.
I, I, I really don't think that that's, that's a bad plan. One thing that really worries me just in general about TypeScript is that you can become clever by half, like too, clever by half so easily with TypeScript. Once you're in generics using these custom methods, reducing things down, making a key specific, you're getting so intense and you have to ask yourself what are you really winning?
'cause the moment you change either side of your application, whether the logic to your types. Or the logic to your application, which by the way, should be a red flag when you have two trains of logic running to do something that you have to change the other side. They're tightly coupled to each other.
And that obviously makes sense. They have to be tightly coupled to each other because they are literally a representation of each other in two different, you know, two different languages, if you will. And so it's like, I get that JS doc kind of forces you to be more simple. You're okay, maybe with not all of the autocomplete you theoretically could have.
If someone hands you a number and you thought it was a string and it just wasn't a part of your system, you're gonna get that. So in some sense, he's more correct, saying typeless is better because you are forced to handle those cases always. But at the end of the day, he provided no types, which I also think is equally probably not in the right direction.
Uh, though I can respect his decision on that thing, and I think it's probably the right way. Uh, he also gets the unfair shake because people either love him, And we'll defend him, or hate him, and we'll just say whatever they can against him. And I, I, I don't think either are technically correct.
So there you go, I'm giving you the more, this is the, so these are the takes you get not on Twitter.
This is the take you get on the live stream and stuff like that where I'll try to walk through my thought process on these things. Cause on Twitter you got 280 characters, really you only have about 40 to 50 characters if you want to make a tweet work. And you can't say all this in a single tweet.
[00:23:48] Chuck: Right. So this is uh, this is why it's great to like bring it up here and talk about it over a little bit of whiskey and like, not make such a big damn deal because... People can conflate the context of words in a lot of different ways. Yeah, I mean, DHH is another one where I have a lot of indifference to.
He's had success. I don't know, I used Basecamp a few different times in previous positions. Seems fine. Works for different people. Bought him a few race cars. Good for you. Um,
[00:24:15] Primeagen: I mean awesome, you got a race car.
[00:24:17] Chuck: Yeah. I, I think ultimately at the end of the day, that project, even as open source, as he said, has been fully funded by his company, predominantly used by his company and the direction given by his company.
So if folks in open source don't like the direction that it's going, given, you know, the trade off with the benefit they may or may not get, then, you know, move on to the next thing.
[00:24:39] Primeagen: Fair, fair take. Uh, I'm going to, I'm going to challenge you to touch on that one though, which is that when people start relying on you as some sort of open source provider, you do still have some level of obligation. You know, I generally say explicitly that I don't call myself open source on any of my projects, including my dot files.
I have a bunch of scripts. People use TMUX Sessionizer is probably the most popular one of all mine. And I just say it's public source. And there's a difference. I make all the decisions. You can use what you want, but I have no obligation to make you happy. I'm not going to try to make you happy. And this is just for me.
Sorry, that's just the way it's going to be because I can't. And so if the thing he was developing was public source in that kind of sense, then that makes sense. But if it was open source where people were contributing to making it part of theirs and all that, and then you get the 180 on them, I could feel a bit betrayed by that.
[00:25:30] Chuck: You, you can, I mean, in general, open source is a gentleman's agreement, or a people's agreement, to be, you know, more correct.
And, unfortunately, or fortunately, at any point, they can kind of change their mind on that to a degree. You know, you, like, uh, HashiCorp are changing things around Terraform, trying to, because, you know, they're a for profit company, who have this open source product, and then they shifted that, they shifted the agreement.
To their own betterment or to try to basically, you know, counteract other companies profiting off of their work. what you're thinking and your intent when you start an open source project and where your mind is there and years down the line, especially if a company is backing that, unfortunately, like it or not, that's, I think that's a degree of capitalism that people don't have to like.
Absolutely not. Is it right? Probably not. It's not morally correct. Is it still going to happen from time to time? Absolutely. someone's going to rage off FakerJS and ruin a bunch of stuff, or, just these things are going to happen. Hopefully they're few and far between, but I think to expect that these individuals have an obligation to you for all of life is...
Kind of a problem in open source to begin with because this is a bunch of free work, right? At the end of the day, it's a bunch of free work that many people, , benefit from.
I mean, we talked to Max and, uh, T, t. xyz,
[00:26:53] Robbie: XYZ,
[00:26:54] Chuck: his thing where he's trying to like, you know, kind of put in a system that will reward open source contributors, open source, you know, leaders.
I don't know. I don't know if that's the right answer or if there is a right answer at any point, but, uh, You know, I think there's always going to be like a point of contention at, at some juncture because of money. It's always because of money.
[00:27:16] Primeagen: yeah. Well, I mean, whether you like it or not, it's always because of money.
The thing is, is money may change. The definition of money may change. Like, you could you know, they always try to have this futuristic society where there's no such thing as money. It just is replaced with something else, because now you have the notoriety, right?
You just have office politics, except for everywhere. And so that's like the next version of money. And so it's like, when people do these things, something is something is always going to challenge it. And there's no way to make it so that they're going to love what you do. that's why I'm not necessarily against what happened when it came to what, what DHH did, because, you know, it should be in their purview.
It is a company paying to do that. It's not like they deleted previous versions. I really don't like that they left their users kind of in the dust on that. Feels, I feel bad for them. on that,
but someone could also create a types, you know, a definitely typed types slash whatever the library was named.
And now someone just provided the DTS file. And now it works again with types.
[00:28:11] Chuck: Yeah, totally. There's that. There's forking. There's thunder at your
[00:28:16] Primeagen: Yeah, sorry, that was thunder. If you're wondering, it was not a train wreck. It was just standard thunder.
[00:28:21] Chuck: That's good. Thunder's great.
[00:28:23] Primeagen: So I do want to preface one thing. If you're looking for super hot takes, I probably have some of the least hot takes of people. I genuinely think I have fairly mild takes. Uh, I'm glad to keep answering these, but I try, I really do try, despite my Twitter,
see things from both sides.
[00:28:40] Chuck: Yeah, and
I do believe you're genuine. I think you're genuine. I think that that is probably what resonates there. But the funny, it's funny that you say that because I feel like something you've said on Tech Twitter probably is behind at least, what, 40 percent or so of our hot takes that we ask you. And ask all the guests, by the way.
Yeah, right? You're a driving force there. Like it or
[00:29:06] Robbie: Yeah, Yeah, people can take things in whatever context they want, whether it was meant to be hot or not. But yeah, let's let's talk a little bit about milk. How do you feel about milk these days?
[00:29:16] Primeagen: Okay, so, uh, I've recently quit Milk, so let me, let's, so first I gotta, I gotta do the full, can I, can I give you like the full story of
[00:29:23] Robbie: Sure, yeah.
[00:29:25] Chuck: Yeah, I mean you won the internet on Milk, so I can't wait to hear where it goes.
[00:29:28] Primeagen: you know, I actually both won and lost the internet. Wait till you hear, I guess you didn't hear the conclusion to this epic story. So, it started off with MilkyDev.
I always call him the Milk Man just cause, you know, his name literally just sounds like milk. Whatever, right? And so, him being goofy, he grabbed a gallon of milk and drank it on stream. He's like, I'm the milk man, right?
Funny, right? Well, if you haven't followed the account of Warren Buffering, you're really missing out.
Warren Buffering is like one of
[00:29:55] Chuck: I think I've made him mad. I
[00:29:57] Primeagen: Oh yeah, you never know what you're going to get out of him. He's very, very funny. So he, like, just saw it and then took a picture of him drinking out of a gallon of milk. So then I see that. I go sit out in my field and drink out of a gallon of milk with the horses behind me.
So then it's just like a proceeding of who can make the most outrageous things. Well, Warren Buffering happens to live with me in South Dakota. So I was like, Hey, my father in law has a boat. Let's go on the boat. Let's wake surf and I will feed you milk. Right? And so I went behind him, grabbed him and fed him milk on the wake surf.
We were both wake surfing at the
[00:30:31] Chuck: There's one detail I need to add there, is that you were in the hoodie with the headphones,
[00:30:35] Primeagen: was in the hoodie with the headphones still on. Yeah, that was part of the joke, is I never leave the, I never leave the, the, the hoodie and the headphones, which I'm currently in right now. And so... It was a good joke. I thought it was genuinely great. Well, right after that, a, uh, someone that's going for the Rust moderation team, he tweets out that it's a well known fact that drinking milk is a sign of white supremacy.
Links some article from 2018. I know you guys both look surprised.
[00:31:03] Robbie: I I saw
[00:31:05] Primeagen: milk from the gallon is a sign of white supremacy. Now, I literally have never met somebody that actually knew this. I, I didn't even know this was a thing. And so then he's like, but that's like the whole game is that when you can easily deny it, that's why it's a dog whistle.
So it's like, you're double trapped. Like I can't say either way. Like if I say I deny it, see dog whistle, I'm like, damn it. How am I? I, I got racism from drinking milk on a wake surf. Like I just didn't see this one coming. How is this possible?
[00:31:33] Chuck: Oh, right.
[00:31:34] Primeagen: And so, yes, I got that one and it kind of just like. I really was trying to make Tech Twitter just a more fun place because it's always arguments.
It's always belittling and like even in our best effort, which got all the way up to writing surfboards. I thought someone might try to do it skydiving. I genuinely thought there was going to be one dev that tried it skydiving because that's like the next thing, right? but no, it didn't get there. It just kind of got squashed and then everyone kind of got sad about it and it just kind of, it just kind of ruined the fun.
And my only take on, obviously, white supremacy is that, it's just, it's just sad. There's just a bunch of losers in their mom's basement. You know? I'm not gonna be affected by them. That's why I don't know about it. That's I don't even read up on that crap. I don't have time for that crap, cause I got kids and shit to do.
So it's like, ah, yeah, that sucks.
[00:32:18] Chuck: Well, well, are your kids white supremacist? Because my kids have white supremacy drink, well, at least three, four mornings a week.
[00:32:27] Primeagen: Many, many times. No, no, they, they, they, obviously they drink a lot of milk. But, uh, they love milk. So I actually quit milk, not because of that. Uh, because I've been just trying to lower my, uh, sugar intake. Pretty regularly, so I've decided that I'm going to start drinking less milk, because I used to put it in my coffee a bunch.
So to avoid getting as much sugar, I just cut milk out almost entirely.
[00:32:49] Chuck: basically, what is it for, especially for males, I think past the age of 25 or so when your bones have solidified more, like milk isn't really that beneficial in the same ways that it would be for bone density and whatnot prior to. Plus you can get calcium at a bunch of like hmm.
[00:33:07] Primeagen: Sure, sure, but it's, it's the emotional part, okay? You don't need to ever eat a donut. There's nothing good about a donut, but you know what? I love donuts, okay? I love voodoo donuts. I want that Homer Simpson donut all day, every day. But I don't eat it all day, every day, because I have self control. The higher will versus the lower will, okay?
I listened to the higher will here, but nonetheless... That's my, that's why I don't do it is just simply that I want to just always kind of take out the, take the easy wins. I may love milk and coffee. I think it just tastes the best. Really, coffee is just a delivery system for more milk. Easy W. Reduce sugar.
Increase just overall health. Easy win.
[00:33:46] Chuck: Yeah. Fair enough. Um,
[00:33:48] Primeagen: Jesus is upset outside. Nobody knows what's happening.
It's like, this is loud.
[00:33:53] Chuck: did we just become best friends because I was just about to say that. I was like, Jesus.
[00:33:58] Robbie: What's your favorite
[00:33:59] Chuck: it. All right. No. Oh, geez. Yeah. Step step brothers. Yeah, I got it. Uh, I want one more hot take though, because everybody's talking about bun, bun, bun, bun,
bun, bun, bun.
[00:34:11] Primeagen: yeah, yeah, yeah. I've kind of, I'm currently in trouble right now on Tech Twitter because of my YouTube video today. So,
[00:34:19] Chuck: Oh, I gotta go watch that after I was stuck in things. I couldn't do research to date also. so
[00:34:25] Primeagen: currently called out by Node. js right now.
[00:34:28] Bun vs Node
[00:34:28] Chuck: Okay. Yeah. I was going to say, there it is. Bun or node V 20. Because Node continues to innovate and upgrade.
[00:34:36] Primeagen: I'm going to read you my, uh, my current, , like intro to this video I'm thinking about on Bun.
[00:34:43] Chuck: Okay.
[00:34:44] Primeagen: It goes, or it goes a little something like this.
It's a Friday afternoon and you write your first line of code for your startup. Which was a configuration for TypeScript, Webpack, ESLint, prettier, prettier inside of ESLint.
I'm cutting it kind of short, right? And finally, after many hours of sadness and JSON configuration, and questions to ChadGPT, where Sheila reminds you that she hasn't updated her training since 2001, but we all know she's a liar and she's been updating it right now. Skynet's upon us! you know, then in walks the hottest, the newest, the likely buggiest, Production Ready 1.
And Bun off the rip dominated Node. Right, just completely dominated their ability to their their callback mechanism for process tick is just way, way better. Their, their interaction with the runtime for set timeout is way, way better. Their promise handling way, way better. But if you set timeout with a time of zero, and you do that in a loop, you'll starve the threat.
And so I think this is where people get all upset And they're like, you know, the problem of venture capitalism Probably correct on this one Bun's not 1.
0 But they've gone 1. 0 and so I agree with that take that, you know, money's probably the reason why they went 1. 0 at this point. They're just not ready for it. Do I think bun has a great future?
But like they've had 15 years of legacy, no matter what you think. 15 years of legacy is just simply going to have things that aren't as good, right? They're going to, there's some parts that just won't be as well written or there's better like sys calls, right?
Few texts maybe becomes available on Linux before it wasn't available. It's like a better way to do mutex types of blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like those things could, you know, maybe you just don't have them yet. And because rust didn't even have them until just like a year and a half ago. That's why you used a parking lot for mutex as opposed to using rust standards.
Mutex. And so there's a real reason why these things happen, why legacy can be expensive. It's just simply the world moves on. And so I do not fall node for that at all. I like the performance. I like what it's offering. I like that about bun, but here's where the real kicker happened. I took my big project, I wrote a, I still use Webpack because Webpack is honestly the easiest one to get started with ChatGPT.
I go, here's my entry, I want a single file out, I want uglify this, this, and this, make it happen. Boom, it config, put it in, makes it happen, fantastic.
Vite, I still struggle with both pronouncing it the correct way and actually having the library version of it.
[00:37:54] Chuck: French people across the world are like, that's
[00:37:56] Primeagen: I know. You got, you need to pronounce it with it's endonym, that's
not even a French. That is like
[00:38:02] Chuck: That's Italian,
[00:38:03] Primeagen: best. That was Italian at best right there.
[00:38:05] Chuck: Hmm. Now you making enemies all
[00:38:08] Primeagen: m'appelle Charles, uh, I just said my name is Charles, just so you know.
[00:38:13] Chuck: Yeah. No, I, uh, I'm going to France next week and I took like six years of French anyway.
[00:38:19] Primeagen: Okay, okay, then you should be more ashamed of your French
accent. En deux trois, uh.
[00:38:25] Chuck: On, deux, trois, quatre, cinq, six, sept. Alright, anyway.
Have another Charles. Charles.
[00:38:32] Primeagen: is a good thing. I think we can all agree performance is a good thing. It's the other promises that I want to see bun fulfill,
which is, have you ever had a project you're using? Everything's going great. And all of a sudden you include another dependency and your build stops working and it says, Hey, you need tight module.
So you put tight module and then your build keeps failing and says, Hey, you can't do this because you have tight module. And you're like. What happened? You're using Vite. Vite's supposed to, like, take care of all these things, yet somehow, you can't do anything because either it fails if you do, or fails if you don't, so therefore it doesn't work.
And so it's like, that sucks. That sucks a lot, especially since it's literally just an import export. Like, you could totally solve this. It's like 30 lines of code. Just solve the thing. That's all you need to do. And yet it's not solved. And so when bun came around and said, Hey, you know what? We're going to make ES six common JS, whatever you're doing, we're going to make it work.
And that's that. And guess what the same tool you use to install your dependencies is the same tool you're going to use to bundle, which is the same tool you're going to minify with. And it's the same tool that you can just raw dog run TypeScript, and it will effectively feel instant. That's bun to me.
That was the 10 times bigger selling point is not the performance, but the fact that from the very first time you've ever written a line of code to the person that's seen some shit in the field, they're all going to appreciate that as a selling point, because guess what? Guess what? Cargo does the same thing.
Guess what? Go does the same thing. It just caught up to modern development for the first time ever in a real way. And so I love that because Vite is not modern development. It's, it's still yet another tool and it's still yet doesn't necessarily. always play nice. There are edge cases. Bun's the first real one.
And so that's why I'm excited about bun. I'm not excited because it's really a year off before it's actually ready for any sort of real adoption.
Hot take coming in hot.
[00:40:29] Chuck: I think that's the risk too, right? Like, you're coming in and you're saying you have all these things and it's drop in ready and it, you know, is a one to one replacement for Node and yadadadadadada. You know, I think that there's... I'm sure that there are instances where that's true, and Jared has been very responsive.
I mean, to his credit, he's been like, tell us, we're gonna fix these things. He's basically saying, we want to get to one, I'm releasing this, start using it, and we're gonna just go nuts and fix this. And man never sleeps, so I'm
sure he will fix everything you let him
[00:41:00] Robbie: He doesn't have furniture. He can't sleep.
[00:41:03] Chuck: Yeah, but the, but, but yeah, the risks there are how many folks...
are going to hit walls, not tell him, not reach out or in circumstances where they can't afford to go down that path together with them, and then he's lost them, right? So at that point, it's going to, let's go back to what works. I've got to ship features, I've got to fix stuff for users, I have users, I've got to keep moving forward, you know?
So that, I think that's the risk.
[00:41:29] Primeagen: I turned myself down. So I may have I, I'm going to turn I'm going to mute myself. So am I good volume? Am I peaking or anything? Are we looking good?
Sorry, I keep getting a bunch of thunder. So I'm going to just start turning my You can't see that I'm turning,
[00:41:43] Chuck: Yeah, we lose you here and there. I'm not bothered by the
thunder to be honest. I
[00:41:47] Primeagen: for your
For your recording, I want a nice recording, okay? I'm
[00:41:51] Chuck: Okay, because you're going to really pump this episode, right? You know, like it comes out and you're going to be like, everybody listen to this. I had so much to say here. Ignore those other guys.
They're dumb, but they, you know,
[00:42:01] Primeagen: Yeah. Exactly. I kept getting interrupted. By God. Don't worry, I'm not foolish enough to actually believe that, but
[00:42:10] Chuck: Um, yeah, your imaginary friend up in the sky, but he loves you. I love that George Carlin, so, anyway.
[00:42:16] Primeagen: I, I, I know George Carlin. He, sorry, he was like, I just wasn't Generation X. I always thought I should be Generation X. I'm just not Generation X. I feel like I just don't got the George Carlin.
[00:42:26] Chuck: it could be. I'm, I was born in 77, so I am Gen X. I'm in the heat of it, so,
[00:42:31] Primeagen: You are. You are the thick of Gen X.
[00:42:34] Chuck: Listen, I've also cut out some sugar and calories and other things, so not as thick.
[00:42:38] Robbie: I need to do
[00:42:39] Primeagen: Like that.
[00:42:40] Robbie: But, uh, I have not because, you know, bun is so hot, I'm going to get some bao buns for dinner. So those are, uh,
[00:42:48] Chuck: Those are delicious.
[00:42:49] Robbie: yeah, um, but yeah, I, I have this problem with, uh, like I was trying to update to Astro three, or I guess even an Astro two, it's just an Astro issue that is just not going to be fixed.
Cause they use V and like, if you run dev mode, it works. And then if you run build, it doesn't. And I'm like, why is that ever a thing? They should run on the same thing and you should not be able to have a successful app in dev mode and then have it Blow up when you try to deploy it. That just sounds stupid to me
[00:43:17] Primeagen: It's because standards are hard and multiple standards are harder. That is such an amazing one. Oh, hey, thank you. Oh, look at that. Sorry, this is not an ad. Hey, brought to you by Google. Thank you,
[00:43:32] Chuck: Speaking
[00:43:32] Primeagen: kiddos. I, I got my new, I, dude, I, my phone is so effed up. I know that the people, I don't even know if this is a video podcast or just an
[00:43:40] Chuck: It is. There's, we publish video as
[00:43:42] Primeagen: at that beautiful, beautiful line down the center of my phone. Here we go. It's gonna focus. Look at that. There you go.
[00:43:47] Robbie: yeah,
[00:43:48] Primeagen: like one gigantic line. It is very difficult, and I've had it for two months. And I fi literally, all I have to do is call a place and go, I need a new phone. And they go like this, Well, you know, it's been a until you And I go, No, I work for Netflix.
I need my phone right now. And they go, Oh, yes, you do. You already got the green flag. Okay, here you go. All I had to do was do that. And for three months, instantly improve your phone was not on the top of my to do list. And so I finally did it, and here we go! I'm so excited!
[00:44:15] Chuck: That's good, and I'm glad it's bringing you joy, uh, Marie Kondo would, would, uh, would approve of that move, but yeah, it's just not a, phone usage is not a priority in your life. You're all, usually on much larger screens, so.
[00:44:27] Primeagen: I, I believe that the computers are much better. I, you know, a part of, I get anxiety using the phone. I, I truly do. It, it, something about it is just... I don't know what it is. It just feels, I get, I get anxious. Scrolling is
anxious feeling. I don't do scrolling on my computer the same way because you know your mouse isn't as convenient.
It kind of just makes you go, I don't want to do
[00:44:47] Robbie: Yeah, plus there's other stuff to do on your computer.
[00:44:50] Chuck: Coming back to social media. Has only proven myself right. I like rage quit social media like five or six years ago and came back mostly to Twitter because reasons, you know, inter interacting, creating like connections for the podcast and you know, all of that kind of stuff. So this is like felt necessary, but regressing back into that whole like, let's go on there.
Oh, a couple of messages. Oh, what's going on? Scroll, scroll, scroll hour later. What the it works. The algorithm
[00:45:22] Primeagen: it does. That's one thing where, you know, if you'll notice that I don't reply to a lot of Twitter anymore and I'm trying to just peel myself back is that
I just want to say things that are on the top of my head. At that moment and nothing else. And if it doesn't work and no one wants to listen to me, that's fine.
If it does work also pretty neat, but that's kind of been my like strategy for the last little bit. And I, I'm, I'm finding myself slowly ramping down on Twitter usage just because it is, it's, you know, like, it's good to go look on there. Like I do try to go on there twice a day and just look to understand.
New, new news articles, what are people thinking about, what's happening, and sometimes I use them in videos, sometimes I just read them, sometimes I watch the videos, it's just like I want to know what is like the most interesting thing at the time, but I do want to say that I don't know why other people use it, like I literally do this for part of my living.
I, I, I go on Twitter and I make statements about things or I go on YouTube and make statements about things or go live streams and make statements about things, you know, like a big tech live stream is like a hundred people. This last stream today, I just did today. I got 2700 people watching me make statements about things.
So I know I have to be super careful about it and I have to be up to date. And so I'm like trying to make some sort of reasoning why I have to do research to it. And so
I, I genuinely don't understand. Why you'd want to use Twitter outside of being someone who creates. And so I'm, I'm, I am confused about that side.
[00:46:54] Chuck: well, I'm gonna make three statements. One is that you should be happy that folks use it for other reasons, because they're consuming your statements. So,
[00:47:03] Primeagen: fair. But I still don't get it. But it's fair.
[00:47:06] Chuck: Right. And then another one is, I'm on there again, kind of for similar reasons, but not exactly. But again, to get like some context and sentiment and fuel for the fire in some ways.
I do envy that you just go drop a statement and go with it. Because both Robbie and my wife, Do not want me to do those things. They're like, that's in your head, keep it there. Uh, and then for me, I'm a massive soccer fan, so there's at least a few times a year, minimally, that I need to be on there to get the gossip of what's going on and who's going to play for what team and all that kind of crazy stuff.
So, that's more of like a, it fuels information for my hobby that in no way benefits me or my family financially. Unfortunately. I haven't worked that out yet, but maybe we'll get there.
[00:47:49] Primeagen: I, I, I, I guess I get that a little bit better. Maybe, you know, maybe I was a little rash on that.
[00:48:16] Chuck: Which is interesting to me because having watched your videos and like how much is happening simultaneously that you are really dialed into also, which is like crazy to me because like You're live coding. There's, there's stream, you know, there's live comments happening. You obviously have like what you want to talk about top of mind too.
I've just, and it's probably this, I'm not able to multitask to that degree. And so you've got your music going, you've got that going behind you, you've got your stream of comments here, and it's just like, it's almost like a DJ in a way. It's like a code DJ, and you're just dialed in to all these inputs.
Um, so, I don't know. I don't know where I was going with that, but I just felt like there was a connection there.
[00:48:59] Primeagen: So I would have followed up with the reason why I think that works out is that have you ever played a musical instrument you
[00:49:04] Chuck: Not well. But Robbie has. He can,
[00:49:07] Primeagen: Okay, have you ever tried to sing while playing your musical instrument?
[00:49:11] Robbie: Yeah,
[00:49:12] Primeagen: He's shaking his head yes.
Okay, uh, Robbie, thank you for the outstanding and very resounding yes. Uh, so, you'll notice when you first start out doing it, it's like, it's like you're competing against yourself. But then after some amount of time it becomes very natural. It's almost like you have two tracks in your brain. And your musical instrument, the more you know it, the deeper it becomes.
The easier it is to do it. Like, it's almost like on a lizard brain side. Right, you're just solving these things. You kind of know what you want to do. You know where you want to go. You know what you have to play. It's lizard brain side. And then you have the singing, which is like another part of your brain, which is like your listening side or something like that.
I'm not really sure how to describe it other than that. And so when it comes to chat and stuff, I'm reading chat while programming because I already, Robbie just, he literally got up and left.
[00:49:57] Chuck: He's like that. He can hear you.
[00:49:59] Primeagen: I do
[00:50:00] Robbie: yeah Yeah, no, my dogs are barking. I was closing the door.
[00:50:04] Primeagen: Okay. And so it's like when I, you know, when people say, how do you do that?
Oh, I just heard a dog now.
But when people say, how do you do that? It's the same thing. It's just that I've programmed for. When I was first starting out from sophomore college year, all the way up until about 2016, I was programming like 80 hours a week. So it's like, I did a lot, like I've done it so much, it just feels so second nature.
When I hear a problem, I can just see the general steps I need to take, and I just start. just running, right? It may not be the best program, but it's going to get me from A to B. And it's going to be okay, extensible. I usually don't try to build things to be extensible. I think that's always been a lie of our industry.
And so I just build it to be okay. And that's my only goal. And I've gotten pretty good at that one shot. I bet I could write good enough code for this. Kind of, uh, mentality. And so I've just done it for so long that now, talking with chat, it's like I'm singing. Like, I'm playing my instrument, I have my path, I know what I need to do, I know I'm about to do myself a little minor seven, so we already know what's gonna be coming up!
So I'm gonna be jumping on over to like, you know, so it's like, I'm already kind of in, in the space. And so now it's just simply me talking while doing it. And it's just like a trained skill. It's like any other skill you get, it's just a trained skill.
[00:51:20] AD SPOT
[00:51:20] Robbie: yeah, I mean, I think you probably have a more trainable brain than I do. I was, uh, trying to learn, like, so Chuck and I both bought, like, the split keyboard, like, the same one you have, I think, and like,
[00:51:32] Chuck: yeah,
[00:51:33] Primeagen: Kinesis
[00:51:33] Chuck: thing.
[00:51:34] Primeagen: by
the way, use code PRIME360. AHH!
It's the best
[00:51:37] Robbie: so, so I used it for, like, a couple days, and I was like, I mean, I like that my wrists don't hurt.
But I'm so slow, I can't, like, get work done. So I had to, like, go back to another keyboard to get work done in time. And, like, I guess I need to spend more time outside of work messing with it or something. But, like, it's just, like, how long did it take you to get used to it?
[00:51:59] Primeagen: Okay, so, this is gonna sound completely arrogant and mean. It took approximately zero seconds to get used to it. Okay, so I am a fairly good typer. I, you know, even in my old age, 37, I'm still typing,
uh, plus hot... Plus 100 words per minute. So that's pretty fast, and that's on a kinesis with pinks, by the way.
These are pinks, so they're kind of heavier. You know, they have that, they're very thonky, very heavy. And so it's like, I can type pretty fast. And so when I jumped onto this, it was pretty natural. The thumb, it's a little strange at first. But you know, when you force yourself to do something, Jeez! When you force yourself to do something for 60 hours in a week, you're gonna get good at it.
Just force yourself to do it. And so after 120 hours, everything felt completely normal. Except for one thing. Which was the difference between, I use Dvorak, by the way. And not only do I use Dvorak, you can go on my GitHub, and you can see a custom Dvorak that's designed for a laptop. And I moved it over to the Kinesis.
So V and forward slash are right next to each other. And I kept hitting V and forward slash. Kind of like on accident and so if you're on a standard qwerty that would be this side this this style greater than or less than Sign, whatever that that would be the greater than sign and the open squirrely brace So like I kept mixing up those two keys and that was the only one I ever Struggled with and then of course thumb clusters just being a whole new thing, right if you've never used a thumb cluster It's the first time using it
space and enter felt a little like I felt slow But, you know, I kind of gained speed and now it feels great.
And so, I just never, like, all the typing felt completely normal. And it was just a matter of the fact that I just, I just use it all the time. You know, I've been typing since I was like seven years old, eight years old.
I've been typing over a hundred words per minute since I've been nine.
[00:53:43] Robbie: Wow.
[00:53:44] Chuck: I invented the typewriter, so
[00:53:46] Primeagen: Well, you're old. You're like Dino the dinosaur.
[00:53:49] Chuck: all right. Do you know the dinosaur? There you go. well, there you go. Just keep at it. I think time and patience and just dedication and practice and that's probably been a theme
[00:53:59] Primeagen: Robbie, do you play the guitar? Do you know a major six?
[00:54:03] Robbie: No, I'm, I'm not super trained in it. I just, uh, I know like basic cords.
[00:54:09] Primeagen: Okay, go look up a major six, kind of like in your, uh, your, your, your first position, you know, like kind of like your E position, whatever they call it, there you go, your E position, uh, major six, you have to put your first chord, two strings down, on your D, you have to go one, one fret back, then you have to do like this, like, it's, it's just like the, the weirdest kind of positioning where all four fingers are engaged, When you first do it, it feels completely strange. But once you get done learning that little major six, all of a sudden it gets a lot easier and then it becomes pretty normal. And so that's how I feel about a keyboard. It's just like, it's just a new key. You already have all the muscle memory and talent available. You just gotta kind of form it into the new thing, and you're like, Oh, yee, oh, okay, okay, yeah, now it feels normal again.
[00:54:52] Robbie: Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah. I think the biggest
thing for me was like I kept reaching for backspace and it was not there. So
[00:55:00] Primeagen: Mm hmm.
[00:55:01] Robbie: um, that was like the weirdest one. I was fine with pretty much everything else except for that. The shape was a little weird 'cause I'm used to a flat keyboard, but,
[00:55:09] Primeagen: Yeah. But you don't get that. You don't get the twist, right? That's where all the damage happens, is pressure and a twist, because if you know your physics, right hand rule, boom, torque vector coming out your wrist, you don't want all those things. And so it just, like, prevents a lot of that from happening.
[00:55:23] Chuck: you just listened to, uh, what is it, Fats Domino? And then you can do, you can do the twist. Come on baby, you know that song. Let's do the twist. I think that was Fats Domino, wasn't it?
I don't know.
[00:55:35] Robbie: I don't know.
[00:55:36] Chuck: You don't know that
[00:55:37] Robbie: the song. I know the song. I don't know who
[00:55:39] Primeagen: I'm trying to think, are you saying that, when you just did that little singing, it doesn't really feel like it was the right anything, so now I feel like I don't know
[00:55:46] Robbie: Yeah, I don't know any
[00:55:46] Primeagen: I was thinking the one where he's trying to convince the girl to dance, he's like, come on, I can do the twist.
[00:55:51] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, that's
[00:55:53] Primeagen: okay, okay.
[00:55:53] Chuck: just not a good singer.
[00:55:54] Primeagen: No, neither am I, that's why I didn't
sing it. Just letting you know, I just don't sing, you know,
[00:55:59] Chuck: All right. You know, there are things, there are limits that, so there's that. That's fair enough. I feel like, I don't know if we talked about this before, but if you were not in tech, if we stripped away at career and technology, what would you do?
[00:56:15] Primeagen: Are you ready? For my bizarre answer?
[00:56:19] Chuck: Yes.
[00:56:20] Primeagen: Have you ever read the introduction to The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis?
[00:56:25] Chuck: No, obviously familiar with the author, but um,
[00:56:28] Primeagen: I mean, everyone has heard of the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe.
of course, uh, but,
[00:56:33] Chuck: I know through the looking glass, so I've gone a little deeper in the catalogue, but yeah, not that one.
[00:56:38] Primeagen: Okay, so,
in The Problem of Pain, he, he kind of defines this, this, this term, impossible. The problem is, is we don't really think about that word, impossible. And, and, and impossible is not just a word that means something that can't be done. It actually comes with a pre inserted... Unless, so he goes like this, if I've broken my leg and I'm sitting in the house and I would like to see the beach from my house, I cannot go see the beach, it's impossible for me to see the beach, unless I have some friends come and help me go and see the beach from my balcony. then he says, well what happens if your friend asks, well if time and space were available so that you could see around corners, then you could see the beach from here. And then he says, in retort, I don't know if time and space could ever be in such a way. It is impossible for me to even think about that because the impossibility is built in of itself.
It is an impossible question to answer. In the sense that it's called the intrinsically impossible. There is no one less clause, right? Like a classic example of an intrinsically impossible question is if God were all powerful, he could create a rock that's so big that he himself could not lift. Right?
It's impossible in of itself because it's just all powerful and a power in which can stop it. It doesn't make sense. Nonsense is still nonsense, even if you're talking about God. And so. With that pre said into this, what would I be doing if I didn't have programming? I actually cannot answer that question because it is an intrinsic impossibility.
I've only lived one life in one timeline. I can't tell you who or what I would have been without that. It's been such a huge part of me from the very beginning. Pretty much, that I can't remember a time I remember when I'm being 5 years old, trying to install the Doom extension to get an extra 100 levels, trying to figure out how to make it work on Windows 3.
1 and not being able to figure it out.
All that kind of stuff, it's like That's like, that's all I can remember,
[00:58:32] Chuck: never been without it, so do you think you'll ever be without it? There you go. There's a follow-up question. Is there retirement?
[00:58:38] Primeagen: well There's retirement in the sense that there's forced retirement there will come a point whether it's tomorrow if I get in the car wreck and can no longer use my upper body or Sometime in the future when I'm just too old to use my body then yeah, there's there will come a point where something in me will be too damaged to be able to do stuff or There's a life track in which I'm too bored to do it.
And so You know, like, it just no longer does it. It just makes me feel empty. And, you know, I think the reality is it's much more likely that I quit social stuff long before I ever quit programming because, you know, like, just like this whole Node thing that I mentioned up where there's, there's a maintainer of Node that he was very upset at me.
At the end of the day, no matter what, I will get sick of this. I won't want to do it. Uh, I, you know, it's equally a drain on me as anyone else. And so there comes a point where I won't do it. And so I can foresee that in the nearer future, much closer than anything else. Because it is just like open source.
No matter how many people like you, there's a bunch of aunties as well. And it just won't work out. You can say nice things, they'll be considered mean. You can say mean things and people will cheer you on. It's like, it's, it's not a very healthy thing.
And so I see that as an ultimate future where no matter what, I will be done with all these things.
When and how it will happen, I don't know yet. I don't try to predict the future too hard. I just know it comes.
[00:59:54] Chuck: I think you'll be missed when the mic drops.
[00:59:57] Primeagen: Mike ultimately will drop.
[00:59:59] Robbie: yeah,
[00:59:59] Primeagen: There you go. I, I try to give it the, uh, the, the most complete answer I could
[01:00:04] Chuck: That's better than farming. You know, which was what I think people would've guessed.
[01:00:09] Primeagen: I literally have a bunch of, I'm up to like 25 raspberry plants, keep gonna keep growing, gonna get like, I want to get up to like 20 blueberries, 20 raspberries, 20 blackberries, and a bunch of strawberries. I'm reclaiming more and more of my land that I live on for that one purpose.
I was gonna say, there's something that's much more natural, probably more healthy for the human condition to touch, touch grass, than it is to touch computer.
I get that. It ain't easy.
That's all there is to it. It's hard. And eventually you just can't do it anymore. You have to work through pain, tiredness, hotness, all that.
[01:00:40] Chuck: I really had to, I just want you to know how much I had to stop myself from saying pimpin Also, ain't easy.
[01:00:46] Robbie: Oh my God.
[01:00:48] Primeagen: It's, It's, a fact. We've been
[01:00:49] Chuck: but, but, yeah, but then,
like, beyond that, I know, I just, you know, jokes cover the pain, Robbie. Will you just let me have it? Uh, at some
[01:00:58] Primeagen: This is why you don't get a tweet on your own. This is why I'm sorry.
[01:01:02] Chuck: Now you understand where, where those who... Maybe care about me, uh, are coming from. Uh, at some point though, dry ice and an address in Phoenix, I don't know, I just doxed myself, maybe will be in my future.
Who knows? I want some fresh raspberries. I could just come to South Dakota though, I guess.
[01:01:20] Primeagen: You could. Golden raspberries next year. Um, they're all dead now. It's, you know, it's, it's into the mid September. Everything's kind of dying. Uh, but, you know,
[01:01:27] Robbie: yeah. What do you use them for? Do you like can them or make jams or
[01:01:31] Primeagen: Eating.
[01:01:31] Robbie: just eating them?
[01:01:32] Chuck: Just straight
[01:01:33] Primeagen: Yeah, this morning I walked out, grabbed, uh, six or seven of, kind of like the remaining last holdouts, put them on my peanut butter and banana toast,
put a few of them on there,
[01:01:45] Chuck: Yeah.
[01:01:45] Primeagen: it.
[01:01:46] Chuck: Perfect. As intended. In their natural state. I love it.
[01:01:50] Robbie: Yeah. All right. We are at time here. Is there anything you want to plug or anything you want to mention before we end?
[01:01:56] Primeagen: You said you had other things you wanted to talk to me about and we never got to them.
Right? Like the actual spicy stuff, the, the takes that are actually spicy that I'm more willing to get canceled over than anything else.
[01:02:07] Chuck: Oh, pfft, okay. Well, I mean, that I have been told don't talk to you about? That's fine, we can go there. But, Robbie, I'm gonna give Robbie a little bit of the floor before I ruin everything.
[01:02:18] Primeagen: Well, I just wanna say, you guys told me, you're gonna talk to me about like, my takes on family and other things
[01:02:23] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, the moral compass,
like, essentially being a moral compass in tech, and, You know, are you, are you, are you letting, letting the tiger go? That's what's going, anyway. No,
[01:02:36] Primeagen: You can totally edit this part out too, if you just feel like it's not gonna work. But I'm, I'm willing to be
honest and I'm willing to get canceled right here, live
[01:02:44] Chuck: I don't know that
you'll get canned. I I, I feel like you've leaned a lot into like how bad porn is on the internet, which I think to a degree kind of fuels a lot of money throughout the internet and gives people pseudo anonymity until data breaches happen and whatever else. So I was just going to bring up some things around porn.
I think that you even made a funny comment that would have like been my lead in and then I just didn't. So I think just. It's interesting that you take a stance, a strong stance, that could be controversial on a few different things. And I think porn is probably one of the biggest ones, to be honest. Like, porn does terrible things to people.
Like, you can go talk about how, , fake sweeteners can cause generational anxiety, and people will be like, oh, that's an interesting take, and they'll move on with their lives.
It's interesting because I think some people think that porn is a healthy outlet, to a degree, and something they can share with their partner.
And you are like, no, absolutely, it just provides nothing. It provides like, probably like a falsehood of expectation. I think it's probably one, like, one of your biggest arguments.
[01:03:54] Primeagen: that would be one of my biggest arguments. Correct.
Would you, would you like me to expound? Would you like me to expound upon all that stuff?
[01:04:00] Chuck: I would like you to
ex pound. Expound that.
[01:04:06] Primeagen: going in with the porn references already. Alright, so,
so first off, there's a lot of things here. I think one of the hardest parts is that you have to have like a, a moral reasoning for this. Because if I just say porn's bad, you're going to ask why? Why is it bad? Right? We live in a day, we kind of live in the cynical Pontius Pilate day.
And what I mean by that is, you know, when Jesus was there, he said, something along the lines of, I am truth. And then Pontius Pilate says. What is truth? Right? We that's pretty much our day. If you could sum up our day and age. It's Pontius Pilate. What is truth? You say that? Why? Right? There's not really, we'd kind of let go of all previous standards of any kind and just say, okay, today is the day in which this is how the world ran is modernity.
Modernity is the truth version of the world. And that's kind of what we're going to run with. And so for better, for worse, I think there's some things that are really great about it. And I think there's some things that are really harmful about it. And I think the sex positive work, the pornography thing, those aren't things that are very good about it.
And what I mean by that is that as per the creator, the latest stats I've heard from, uh, from some organizations is that most porn is created. With sex slavery. That's not good, right? So from a pure, just objective standpoint, I think everyone can agree. That's not good. That's not a positive perspective on anything.
Uh, you know, we live in a day in a world where we are told we shouldn't objectify women, right? You know, people that go up to women in their workforce and send them kind of like a pretty grotesque or really inappropriate email. You look at that and you go, man, that's not cool. But where or why do they think that that's okay?
At what point has anyone ever said that that was okay? when you inundate, especially, I mean, men just tend to be the primary target of pornography. Uh, when you inundate, you know, men with that, they don't have a compass. To know where the boundaries at how to even date somebody because it's just like you know what the thing is the nurse comes in And takes your temperature your pressure and whoa that's not the only thing under pressure right like you have no You like have no way of even knowing how to talk to a girl And there's this all these young guys that's true.
They just they they're genuinely struggling with it Erectile dysfunction is the highest it's ever been among young men. We're not talking in like 1%. We're talking in several percents, which is just crazy to think about.
When I was a young guy, I couldn't stop having a boner. I thought I had to go visit a doctor several times a week because it lasted longer than four hours, right?
[01:06:33] Chuck: And then the nurse came in and then
[01:06:35] Primeagen: was ganging by
[01:06:36] Chuck: care of.
[01:06:37] Primeagen: You know, it's like
[01:06:39] Chuck: Okay, I, I, I do have a few, and I want to play devil's advocate in this a little bit. mostly because I used to be a porn star, but no, I'm just kidding. Uh,
[01:06:49] Primeagen: really, when you think about
[01:06:50] Chuck: I know, but my wife could say otherwise. Um, so, yeah, I think that there's a few different points there.
I think that when you talk about, like, the whole, oh, I think I can come into the workplace and I have, you know, I, I just, no holds barred, I can sexually harass, or I can, uh, many other things. I don't know that, sexualization is the limit on that. I think that, like, this everything available all the time culture allows white supremacists to feel like they can awaken and...
outwardly, put their views forth or, you know, I think there's a number of subject matters that that applies to. I, obviously any kind of slavery, sexual slavery, child kind of abuse, all those, those things, where there is a decent amount of, porn created and, and, and like other, other subject matter, like that's all terrible.
[01:07:46] Primeagen: terrible. No one,
[01:07:47] Chuck: But if you, but if you were in a circumstance where it was like regulated like it is in the Netherlands, right? Like you have this very specific, it is a job people opt into, there are safety regulations and all of that. And if people choose to like partake either from a provider or someone who wants that, like.
That's their choice, right? I think from that perspective, I don't necessarily have a problem with it. I haven't, just so the internet knows, I haven't partaken in that. But, you know, I've been to the Netherlands, you go down, you see, like, Oh, haha, that's a funny thing. But, you know, that's a path people can take too.
On a second thing, Oof, I
[01:08:24] Primeagen: you are talking about the difference of prostitution versus pornography. They are different. They are,
[01:08:29] Chuck: And, and, but pornography can be the same too, because there can be a regulated pornography industry as well. So I think that there could be that,
[01:08:37] Primeagen: It will always be different in the sense that, let's just play it out in our head, right? If you were to have a... prostitution experience, you pay one person for an experience, maybe multiple people, whatever it is, right, there's some experience that you have. And then that's kind of the end of it.
Whereas pornography is much, much different, right? It's a continuous on demand, highest most intensity, there's always more intensities. It's like constantly feeding you in a much, much different way. You're going from one person, next person, next person, next person, next person, right? There's that whole joke That when you're done, it's kind of like a dev solving a bug and a person getting done with pornography are the same thing.
You have to close 67 tabs. Why is that like there's some there is something very very different about it, and you know
[01:09:20] Chuck: heh. I, I just argue that the subject matter alone isn't necessarily the problem, because I think that that's happening in a lot of outlets, right? Like,
[01:09:27] Primeagen: so I I still think it is it is the problem. I would say that pride like in the most primordial soup goop creation of all all humans and life that For whatever reason for us we can find artifacts of people a hundred thousand years ago buried just with their family It's been a very Very like intense kind of like human experience to make it a very individualistic thing.
Now obviously there's plenty of examples where people don't do it the right way, right? Uh, obviously that happens all the time. You can find that in anything. No matter what you say morally, there's someone that does it differently, right? So it's a, you know, this is always gonna be, there's always a counter example.
But people have always, like, throughout time have just experienced this is like a very intense thing. Like you could never, until birth control and any of this, you couldn't just be doing that. Like, if you got caught, that's why they call it a shotgun wedding, you got caught impregnating somebody, the father in law brought a shotgun, and you got married, or you got shot, right?
Like, it's a real, real thing, like, this
[01:10:28] Chuck: well, okay, but I think that's a societal and civilization constraint, and it is very much attached to religion because chemically males, right? Like our reason for being is to procreate, right? Is to spread the seed regardless and is not necessarily to be committed to one other individual. That's a societal constraint.
[01:10:53] Primeagen: No, that's lower will constraint. It's not societal, it's lower will. There's a difference, because it exists in all societies. It's
[01:10:58] Chuck: but,
[01:10:59] Primeagen: of society.
[01:11:00] Chuck: okay, but without those constraints and when you're in a place where you're just trying to make sure that human beings continue to exist and that is like chemically what drives you as a human male to put humans, as many as we can out there because we're getting eaten and whatever else it is.
I do think that that is a societal constraint to a degree,
[01:11:20] Primeagen: Okay, let me just throw out something else. Identical, almost identical thing in your brain. Almost perfectly identical. Do you eat another cookie after dinner?
[01:11:29] Chuck: No, because I'm not a sweets person. I eat all the french fries though.
[01:11:33] Primeagen: okay, another version of carbs. How many french fries do you eat? Right, like, there's a higher will versus a lower will argument here.
Your higher will says, I need to be healthy, I need to do the right choice. Like, you know it, you feel it, you hear it, people call it. You're conscious, you like, you know the right things to do.
And then there's the lower will, which is just like, I'm an animal. I do what animals do. And that is, you eat, like, my dog will eat until it throws up.
We kind of have, we're kind of, we live in the weirdest parts, right? We're the highest version of creatures yet, which we have the ability to see our own pain. We have reason. It's a very unique thing that most, that nothing else on planet Earth can do is foresee their own pain. And so we can actually eat the fourth cookie and go, If I eat, you know, I've already hit the point where I'm going to feel sick.
If I have one more, I'm going to feel more sick. It's the same thing. But if you say it about cookies and carbs, people are like, Oh yeah, I get that. But if you say it about unbridled, just have sex with everything, everyone's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't say that it's, it's really the same desire. It produces the same things chemically, besides for like that one chemical that's produced when you're breastfeeding, when you're having a baby.
And when you're having sex, besides for that one, whatever it's called Pitocin or whatever it is, like, besides for that one, it's like, you know, it's the same lower will type of like behavior. And I truly think that we are control. We are higher will creatures. We organize in society. It's very unique. Like, I'm not supposed to take your stuff.
Why? There's no There's really no moral grounding for you to say that if you don't believe in some absolute moral behavior. If you just say, Oh, it's because it's good to be good to humans. You're like, why? And so it's like, I've just taken a more hard line stance, which is, I think the biggest thing you can do is to love one person, find that person and love them.
And sex is a part of that. It's the most intimate, most personal thing you can do on earth. And we can use that in any way we want. And it feels great to use it otherwise, trust me, me in college would have disagreed with myself so hard right now, but nonetheless, it is the most intimate, most personal thing you can do.
And as time goes on. The more you develop this relationship where you don't become what you're not two individual people in a long term marriage, you slowly become one person, right? Like my wife and I, we act like one person. We are working together towards one thing. We are kind of, you know, not to be too biblical.
We're like one flesh, two spirits. We're trying to become like always in line with each other.
And so I think that that's just like if I could redo some of those things, I would have told myself it's not worth it. It's truly not worth it to do those things. It will feel good in the moment. Right. But it's not a long term victory.
[01:14:06] Chuck: Yeah, but it is worth it because it, all those experiences drive you here, right? Because like you've said, it's linear, and if you change anything at the previous points of the line, it could change right now. So that's not worth it.
[01:14:21] Primeagen: True. The most unhappy I've ever been was during those
[01:14:27] Chuck: to get to this.
[01:14:28] Primeagen: that's true, but you don't, like, you know, it's kind of like saying there's a big hole in, in, in the street in a dark, and we're gonna let people fall into it because they need to know the hole's there. You can also prevent the person from falling in the hole, and they'll know to avoid it.
Right. But we can let people have that experience themselves. And you know, the sad part is, is you see a lot of people that are older wishing they could undo some of the things they did when they're younger, but we have no moral standing of any kind to say, Hey, you know what? Maybe you shouldn't eat that next cookie.
Maybe you shouldn't just live this way. Maybe it's better to be a chaste individual than it is to just chase after anything in which your lower will suggest is good. And so that's always kind of been my more. That's my humanitarian argument behind it, because I'm trying to make an argument without appealing to a higher authority.
If you're, if you're wondering, because that's most people kind of observe that, uh, obviously my belief in God and my big change and meth addiction and all that has kind of fueled my thing. So I have more of an absolute morality in this position, but kind of stepping it back once, which is just making a pure human argument.
That's my pure human argument, which is that you, you don't live a more prosperous life that way you will ultimately not end up happy. And so it's like, I would rather try to prevent a huge amount of unhappiness. Then to say, you know what, that one person that actually is happy, which I still don't believe actually exists, but we'll just say exists, will let you keep going so everyone else can just suffer because of that one decision.
[01:15:54] Chuck: think that's fair. I think that you have a, um, deep moral belief in that. Exactly.
[01:16:02] Primeagen: upset, by the way, you guys. Not me! Okay, I'm sitting good.
[01:16:05] Chuck: Yeah, you're fine, you know, but, uh, us, eh, you know, that's alright. Uh, no, I, and I on purpose want to play, like, the counter argument and, you know,
[01:16:17] Primeagen: I'm actually very happy you did because it challenges me too to make, you know, my arguments aren't that great. And it's very hard to make an argument that's not appealing to an authority, right? It's very easy to say, why don't you murder? Well, ultimately, at the end of the day, you can, you can boil it simply down to you'll go to prison or you'll get the death sentence.
Right, like that's appealing to the higher authority. It's actually just bad because they will kill you for it. Uh, but you know, you have to make a moral justification for any argument you make. And it's very, very hard to do that. So I actually do appreciate you doing that. Because most people just call me an idiot or a misogynist or, or something like that.
And that's never been my intention.
[01:16:49] Chuck: Yeah. And that's so surface level. Anyway, that kind of insult, it's just like, Oh, I read this one thing on the internet, or maybe I saw, you know, 10 of your things on the internet. And it looks like you're just an opinionated asshole. But, the reality is, is that there's a long path that has kind of taken you to these opinions and feelings.
And your intent isn't necessarily to like, you know, call someone else stupid or immoral or whatever else it's to like, Put forth what you think is worthwhile, and take it or don't, but I think this is, you know, good advice. And you have to throw that into the ether, so you're not really crafting the advice for Robbie, or Chuck, or, you know, whatever.
You're crafting the advice for Twitter person, and you don't know how that's going to be taken.
[01:17:35] Primeagen: Yeah, uh, my general rule of thumb is like,
I wish I, so like, my dad died when I was seven, I had nobody to guide me, my mom tried to be the best dad she could, she had to step up, be that person, but the reality is she could never be that person, she just didn't have it within her, no matter, she became very physically strong and literally lifted my brother off his feet when he was 17 years old, like she, She had to lay a bunch of drywall.
She became, she was a buff lady at 42, like right? She was tough. But she still couldn't be a dad. A dad can somehow speak into a young boy's life in a different way than a mom can. It's just, you know, I know some people get upset by that statement. It's just... Be a young boy and experience a dad talking to you.
Like I remember when my dad did talk to me and so I never had any advice ever after seven years old on how to live a life. What is good? What is bad? And so a large motivation for me even doing any of the social stuff is that I'm not trying to talk to everybody. I'm just trying to talk to that 20 to 25 year old guy that just doesn't know what he's doing.
Cause I dude, I was there. I was sad. I tried to commit suicide. I did a bunch of meth. I, I did it all. Just trying to fill that void that just simply exists, that exists in everybody. Like that, that, that thing that you can easily see. We all live on the precipice of like really bad depression and horrible things.
And some people live on one side and some people live on the other side. And it's very, very sad and I just, I'd never had anyone to guide me. I had to make every decision myself at all times for what I thought was best. And I was an idiot when I was 14. That's the reality is I was just a dummy, right? And just like every other 14 year old that has ever existed, I was equally as smart as they were, which wasn't,
you know, and I'm 37 years old and when I'm 70, I'm going to look back at this moment and say, you just didn't understand.
And I, I, I do get that point. And so maybe my views will change. Maybe I'll become less hardline on certain things. My only goal is to be like the healthy version of Andrew Tate. I would like to speak into young men and just say, Hey, you know, maybe it's good to just be someone who works hard, tries to be respectable, treat women.
Right. I'm being like the, I'm being like the anti Andrew Tate. I'm
[01:19:45] Chuck: Yeah, like, posi po yeah, yeah. No, I feel like that is the hottest take you've ever had.
Please don't tweet that. Please don't tweet that. I know where you're going, I hear where you're
[01:19:55] Primeagen: I know people can't hear it because they see Andrew Tate and they think it's
[01:19:58] Chuck: because, there was an Atlantic article, or maybe it was something else recently about, like, non toxic masculinity.
I'll find it, I'll send it to you. Um, but it is, it's sort of like, you want to... Allow men to be men, and encourage that. But you don't want it to be toxic in the ways that you're talking about. So I like, totally, uh, grok where you're going with there. And I mean, you know, I'm Gen X er, latchkey kid with a single mom, so...
so, I'm picking up what you're dropping there. Robbie had a silver spoon, he just, he doesn't know what we're talking about.
[01:20:34] Primeagen: I believe they sang a song for you, Robbie, about Silver Spoon.
[01:20:37] Chuck: Well, I loved that show though, so, you know. I think Robbie was, uh, I forget the main character's name. I know that, um, uh,
Jason Ba No, no, no. Jason Bateman was on the show, uh, with Ricky Schroeder, called Silver Spoon. And he had a little, like, uh, train in his house, and everything else. Anyway.
[01:20:57] Primeagen: I was referencing CZR in their very famous song
[01:21:00] Chuck: Oh, yeah.
[01:21:01] Primeagen: the, the Vietnam War that says I wasn't born with the silver
[01:21:04] Chuck: Right. Yeah, because you got out of the draft. Anyway, we massively digressed, but I think it's a good subject matter. I'm glad that we,
[01:21:13] Robbie: yeah.
[01:21:14] Chuck: to let this all
[01:21:15] Robbie: I do have one quick thing that I want to ask about. Um, what does your cup say? Haha.
[01:21:21] Primeagen: you for asking
[01:21:22] Chuck: the cup!
[01:21:23] Primeagen: All right, can I, can I, can I, can I address one more thing before we go on? So the reason why I say I'm not You know, I don't try to target women specifically is that a real talk. I don't understand women. I barely understand my wife I'm just trying to understand her. I feel like women are very complex in comparatively to men Most men want to blow stuff up.
Like it's very pretty pretty one dimensional. So
I Feel like I just understand that feeling
it's like who I was and I was you know I I got to experience that for the last 37 years and so it's not a dig against Or anything. It's just, I don't understand the market and I don't want to try to pretend to understand it.
Cause I kind of feel like people that pretend they understand, it's just so disingenuous and you can feel it. They say all the right things. But it's not honest, right? It's not from that honesty point of view. Whereas, like, I can feel what it feels like to not be strong enough, right? Most women don't think about, Can I physically beat up this other woman, right?
Like, that's just, like, not a thought you have. Whereas, as a guy, that's a more common thought in high school, right? Is, am I gonna get in a fight today? It's just, like, and so, like, I understand that line of thinking, and so that's the only reason why I, I target it that way. so there you go. I just wanted to preface that just in case anyone's wondering.
As far as this one goes... It goes like this. I saved Netflix thousands of servers, and all I got was this lousy mug. So, when I was in my younger years, we had this service called Atlas.
We still have the service called Atlas. And, uh, the Originals team, uh, we were just getting started. We just got done with our hit House of Cards.
People were loving it. We started making another Original. And then another Original. And all of a sudden we had 20 Originals. Now remember... At that same point in 2016, if I'm not mistaken, or, it was 2017, so at that point we were actually releasing a hundred originals that year. We also released that we are opening to every single country worldwide. In 2016, January 6th, 2016, I think? Anyways, uh, so at that point we had this really hard problem, which is, we have original movies with high quality images on different canvases. With six different box arts per video because we wanted to do box art testing on top of we had every single different language So it's like a huge Multiplication matrix like hundreds of them what asset is missing is Casa de Pabla commonly known as how?
What is it called? It's called money heist Is Money Heist missing their asset in the Netherlands? Do you know? Do I know? So I said, okay, I'm going to figure this out. So I went in and kind of came up with this idea. If you don't know what Atlas is, it's just like a super sophisticated gauge slash, slash counter database.
So it like kind of groups itself by time oriented databases. And so you put in a bunch of metrics and it like saves that and then can count that metric. But the memory cost of it is combinatoric. So if you have You know, if you have two items, that have two items that have, if you have a field that has two items, another field that has two items, and one more field that has two items, the cost is eight.
Right. Because it's two times, two times two. And so as that number grows, you can see that it explodes. And I caught in a couple places where we were logging, like, uh, things we didn't care about, like, uh, machine location. Was it US East, US West, EU West, US West one, US West two, right? Like there's like all these, you know, and so it's just like, that's four times as much data, eight times as much data.
And for every 7, 000, it cost us. I forgot like 10 a year. And so I found these metrics that were causing us like literally millions of dollars a year. And I said, Hey, all right. So when I'm doing this, I also want to go back through and look at all these metrics we've been logging. This cost us about a hundred million dollars.
Let's stop this.
And so as a part of that effort, I got this incredible mug that says I've saved thousands of servers. And all I got was this lousy mug given to me by the Netflix performance team, despite not being on the performance team, just simply sending a bunch of emails.
[01:25:30] Chuck: Hmm, but you know what you still don't have a free account.
[01:25:34] Primeagen: I will literally never have a free account.
[01:25:38] Chuck: It's a weird thing, but you know, whatever
[01:25:41] Primeagen: It isn't. I don't think it's actually a weird thing, so hear me out on that one. Why is that, why is Netflix not giving its employees a free account a weird thing? Let's just take Netflix's mentality, which is the no process process.
Okay, so now you have accounts given out. Well, an employee worth X dollars an hour, every single time is going to have to sign up and make sure that their account is linked.
that is an hour, that is two hours worth of emails. How many people does that affect per employee? Every person's going to have to go through that. You're paying these people top of market. Having people have their own accounts is going to be an enormous endeavor by Netflix. You're going to have to write it off for taxes.
You're going to have to report it every year. You're going to have to have all these things, no matter how much automation you have in place. Someone still has to check all those boxes. They're paid for it. Every individual employee is paid for it. It just costs a lot of money. So why? It is 12 a month.
It's 140 a year. They literally, in 2009 or something like that, gave every employee a 120 bonus and just said, Buy your own Netflix. We're done paying for you. It doesn't make sense. It like, it literally doesn't make financial sense. We're
paying you top of
[01:26:48] Robbie: the same
[01:26:48] Chuck: don't want your logic. I don't want your logic I want you to to answer why you cannot just as a benefit Have this for free because
[01:26:59] Robbie: No, it's,
[01:27:00] Chuck: they don't care about the
[01:27:01] Robbie: it's the same, it's the same reason that Amazon doesn't give you Amazon Prime as an employee It also cannibalizes, like, whether they make money off of that specific one or not. It gets rid of subscriptions, it gets, yeah, it's, it's like, it's all a game. It's all a game.
[01:27:18] Primeagen: Well, for us, it's not really big. We have what? I forget how many members we last reported. 200 and some million people. There's like, less than 14, 000 people. Or something like that at Netflix, it's a wash in the bucket, right? It's 01%. I don't know how many members we have, or how many employees we have, crossed by how many members we have.
I don't know those two numbers. I'm sure I can find out their exact number. I'm not going to find out their
exact number, but I could. Uh, and so it's like, it purely comes down to, at Netflix, we will pay you enough money, don't complain about the small things, because it's people over process.
Why don't we offer this?
People over process. That's it. Why do you have to choose what your team's going to build? You, the developer, why do you have to choose that? People over process. You just simply need to solve, aim low, make our product work better in lower bandwidth countries. You choose it, right? Like that's Netflix motto all the way down to like a kind of like a nutshell, which is you do the right thing.
I tell the story a lot. So Netflix got into cloud gaming. I don't know if you've seen any of the articles on that. We were actually we have a bunch of a few countries testing out some cloud games. They're trying things out. So kind of like imagine stadia in some sense,
[01:28:30] Chuck: Yes! Please! Bring back Stadia!
[01:28:33] Primeagen: something like that.
It's nothing like stadia, but you can imagine it's something like stadia, right? Live games. You play from your controller on Netflix, plotted blah, blah, blah.
We've had hundreds of thousands of people going to it right now. We're kind of keeping the, you know, the thing fairly smaller. What? I forget what number it is.
I just say hundreds of thousands because it's a large number. It's larger than 1000. It's less than 10 100 million. Let's just say that that's that seems about the right audience amount. And so with that kind of in mind, We, we have to like solve a bunch of problems. There's a bunch of problems. We have 50 people or whatever working on this problem, huge undertaking, but someone has to solve all these problems.
So my boss has been talking about it. So instead of doing my day job, I just completely ignore all my tickets. And I say, I got an idea, I start grabbing data from these different databases, real time databases, offline ones, these big data's and hive and all this, I start aggregating information in like a week and a half later, I go into a one on one with my boss after lying for like a week and a half that I'm working on stuff.
And I say, Hey, check this out. I say, play a game right now. He plays a game. And I go, okay, give me that game. I you know, you you ID. And he gives me the UID and then I go, okay, let's start the one on one. So we start talking because I know big data, it has, it has some time thresholds. It takes like 10 minutes to update, you know, it's, it's big.
It has a trillion rows per hour or whatever it is. So I'm just waiting for it a little bit. It goes on and we talk through it and he goes, okay, why'd you made me do that? I go, check this out, put it in, run my command line tool. And it's like, your game was successful. You played for this long. You had this many video frames.
You had this much different differentiated. It just went, it went all the way through. I'm like the auto doc. We're going to auto dock games. We don't have to think about it. We're just going to make everything work right off the rip. And he's like, you're working on that full time. That's what you're doing from here on out.
That, that, that was our meeting. That's all it took is me just showing him that it's possible to auto dock and nobody else planned that. No one else thought of it. I just happened to be the first person to take 10 different people's data sources and put them into one and just go, the auto dock. And so that was my job for the last eight months at Netflix was just auto docking and making an, an, uh, hyper triage tool where anybody should be able to triage a game in 10 seconds.
What happened? Why did it fail? Why was it good? Was it bad? Why was it bad? And so that's kind of Netflix's motto. That's why we don't pay for subscriptions in some sense is that You kind of choose your own destiny. What is your destiny at Netflix? Is it a destiny where you don't do things? Or is it a destiny where you create your own future?
I'm working on a new project. Can't talk about that new project, but nonetheless, I'm working on a new project where, again, it's a create your own destiny kind of project where it's just like, I can see what we're doing. Here's what I can offer. I will offer a new perspective. Let me show you. And so I love that.
I love that more than anything else. It's the reason why I continue and I will continue to always work at Netflix for as long as I can. Because it's not some corporate BS machine. Though we do have corporate BS like every corporate corporation ever created. I just think we have less of it. Right. Did I document anything I created?
Yeah, there was a couple of documents. I never really wrote a Google doc, but I created some documents,
you know, like I, I created some readme. mds and coded up some, some triple hashtags for titles, but like, that's about what I did. And so
that's why I just love that. I just love that.
[01:31:48] Chuck: have you written?
[01:31:48] Primeagen: More than one.
[01:31:50] Chuck: Oh! Well, there we go.
[01:31:52] Primeagen: Actually, I didn't get that. I thought it was a PR Deez Nuts joke. I thought you were about to drop a Deez Nuts joke on me, so I was, I was ready. I was just like, oh,
[01:32:00] Chuck: I wi
[01:32:01] Primeagen: one. I'll tell
you that much. Not catching me off
[01:32:03] Chuck: I I wish I had, I wish I had. Oh.
[01:32:06] Primeagen: live on the internet. Remember, I
get, I die of ligma
three times a week. So you just gotta, you know, I'm ready.
I'm ready at all points.
[01:32:15] Robbie: I really do have to jump off for dinner here, so, Yeah, anything, uh, you want to plug and you want to tell people how to find you or anything like that?
[01:32:23] Primeagen: socials, uh, YouTube, Twitch, all those things going great. If you want my long form takes, Twitch or YouTube are better. If you want my short form, really truly incomplete takes, you gotta go on Twitter because Twitter's not a place for complete takes. It's never been a place for complete takes. It's just a place for stream thoughts.
And so, there you go.
[01:32:44] Robbie: All
[01:32:45] Chuck: It's like a notepad. Ongoing
[01:32:47] Primeagen: Yeah, I don't treat it any other way. It's, so if you want like my raw thoughts, Twitter's probably better. But it's very incomplete, very incoherent.
[01:32:56] Robbie: that's fair.
[01:32:57] Primeagen: I'll keep it that way, you know?
[01:32:58] Robbie: All
[01:32:59] Primeagen: Alright, I totally get if we take out the porn section, by the way, and, uh, you know, it's a weird section to have in there, because I feel like the argument's incomplete no matter how I make it without appealing to a higher authority, you know?
It's a very hard conversation to have. Plus, Robbie hasn't said anything this whole time. I feel bad for Robbie.
[01:33:16] Chuck: Well,
[01:33:17] Robbie: Yeah, yeah, yeah Chuck Chuck dominates the conversation, but that's that's fine
[01:33:22] Chuck: I can't help it.
[01:33:23] Primeagen: Can we all say thank you to William Dalton?
[01:33:25] Chuck: Yeah,
[01:33:26] Robbie: that's my guy William.
[01:33:28] Primeagen: This was a really great whiskey. I'm happy with my 6. 5 rating out of 8.
[01:33:33] Chuck: That's what she said. Um...
[01:33:36] Primeagen: If only I could have a six and a half rating, ever.
[01:33:39] Chuck: No, I, uh, I literally chose this out of visuals. Right? I think I picked this. Didn't I pick this? Oh, man. There
[01:33:48] Robbie: I don't know.
Yeah, I mean, if you guys want to
keep talking about random shit, we can just, like, take takes for later, like, out of it, if, if you want. Like, I, I have to go, but you can hang out if you want.
[01:33:59] Chuck: I have to pee also, though. So, there is that. But I do like this, and I... I don't know, I think we should do this in the semi regular cadence? I don't know, it's fun.
Or, whatever. Whatever you think. That's you, Prime.
[01:34:12] Primeagen: Uh, I, I have no problem if you need a couple more hot takes. I always have hot takes, but if you don't want to do it, Feel free, uh, The D Gen Legion loves anything I do. And so I know that it will be great for you guys. I think they're very excited about it. I think you guys are great. I love the fact that you challenged me.
Only, I don't even know if you agree with me. I just love the fact that you did that, so.
[01:34:32] Chuck: It doesn't really matter whether I agree with you or not.
[01:34:34] Primeagen: no, love that. I don't want to know. I love
[01:34:36] Chuck: yeah. I just want to have that combo. No, I just really have to go to the restroom and all that kind of stuff. So, but I want to talk more, more to you in the future and
kind of love this and all that kind of stuff. All right, cool. I'm coming to South Dakota. See you
[01:34:50] Primeagen: Yeah, no, literally you can't. If you, if you actually send me a message to say, hey, I'm coming to South Dakota. Me and the fam are going to come see Mount Rushmore or whatever. Just let me know. We have a room upstairs for you. And then the kids go downstairs to the, just the Thunderdome.
That is the kids zone. And they have their own room in which they can figure out what they need to do. And then you can go off. We'll give you a car. You can go drive around, all that kind of stuff.
[01:35:12] Chuck: I love it. I love it.
[01:35:14] Primeagen: If you have enough for a Jeep, then we can put you in the Jeep. If you don't have enough for a Jeep and it's just you and your wife, I'll give you the plow truck.
[01:35:19] Chuck: Ooh.
[01:35:20] Primeagen: snow's not the only thing I'm plowing.
And then point to the field and say the field could also be plowed if I really wanted it to be, you know.
[01:35:28] Chuck: There we go. I love how you're trying to make my Twitter better. All
right. All right.
[01:35:33] Robbie: Cool Yeah
[01:35:35] Primeagen: you.