140: When Hackers Send the Bill: Who Really Pays for Cloud Catastrophes?

[00:00:05] Robbie: What's going on everybody welcome to Whiskey Web and Whatnot with your hosts Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin

[00:00:12] Chuck: Glory, Glory, Man United. You didn't think you were going to get singing, didn't you?

[00:00:19] Robbie: Yeah, Chuck is excited because Football or soccer or whatever you want to refer to it as is happening right now

[00:00:28] Chuck: Yes, but dear listener, I've shaved off this time for you because I'm committed to your enjoyment your knowledge, and your pleasure.

[00:00:41] Robbie: Indeed

[00:00:43] Chuck: In that

[00:00:44] Robbie: we're come We'll see if we're committed enough to download Huge video files to do all of that conference stuff later or not. But

[00:00:56] Chuck: You mean that conference.[00:01:00]

It's

[00:01:00] Robbie: So those are all the next episodes. I mean, once you hear this, it will have been several episodes ago. So that's confusing. But,

[00:01:07] Chuck: Yeah, I'm talking to future you. You'll see.

[00:01:11] Robbie: Yeah. Go back and listen to those again and be like, Wow, either that video is super super crisp or we just got the 1080p version because I was lazy.

We'll see

[00:01:22] Chuck: Yes, so, if you haven't caught on yet, listener today's episode will be Robbie and myself I, the purveyor of many hats, and Robbie, the complainer of many hats, as you'll see.

[00:01:40] Robbie: Yes, if there's an opinion to be had or a complaint to be made I'll be there

[00:01:46] Chuck: Yeah, in a Jackson 5 kind of way. Alright, so, Today's whiskey is the Jack Daniels Sinatra Select. Which,

[00:01:57] Robbie: In this dope ass box

[00:01:59] Chuck: [00:02:00] there you go.

So, it does come in nice, ornate packaging, it has a book with a story in it, if you like stories, and one of the most notable things I thought was interesting is that it is in a one liter format, so it is not 750 milliliter, like a standard bottle of liquor and so it's, it's, I don't know. I wonder if a liter, I think a liter used to be like what all the pack, all the, the liquor

[00:02:30] Robbie: Hmm then they realized they could make a little more money

[00:02:33] Chuck: yeah, you shave off a little bit, make it less to try to maintain pricing and things like that. Who

[00:02:37] Robbie: just like ice cream where it used to be a half gallon and now it's like a couple scoops. No,

[00:02:46] Chuck: half gallon?

[00:02:47] Robbie: I'm not sure what they really are, but if you ever had Blue Bell ice cream, it's

[00:02:51] Chuck: Yeah. yeah, Oh,

[00:02:53] Robbie: and the other ones are smaller, yeah.

[00:02:55] Chuck: That's interesting. Isn't it funny in America where like we're known for [00:03:00] portion sizes, and I think that holds true a lot for like eating out, like the plates are giant so they can charge you 20 bucks for everything, but like yeah, in like grocery items and stuff, it's shrinking.

So,

[00:03:13] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:03:14] Chuck: Yeah, today.

[00:03:15] Robbie: it's all about the margins.

[00:03:17] Chuck: Yes, and, and padding, and other CSS jokes. But okay, so this is the 90 proof, which I think is standard for Jack Daniels, if I remember correctly. Standard Jack Daniels mash bill of 80 percent corn, 8 percent rye, and 12 percent malted barley, filtered through maple charcoal. So that it has to be called Tennessee Whiskey and not Bourbon.

They say one of their secret sauces of this particular one is that it's made with their unique Sinatra barrels, which have deep grooves specifically carved into the staves to expose the whiskey to extra layers of toasted oak. I guess that's true. I did see a picture of these barrels and they like put some machine in there and like shave these rings just in the [00:04:00] middle.

And then they leave the shavings in there, just laws, because it has to be unadulterated barrels. You know, they're, they're new and they're charred. Weird

[00:04:10] Robbie: I assume they, It's a natural barrel would just be like singing

[00:04:14] Chuck: Yeah,

just singing. it's a

guy who's been dead for 20 years and all of that. But anyway, that and that it's rumored to be aged a few years longer, so. No, nothing confirms that on the Jack Daniels site, but whiskey people say that. Holy.

[00:04:36] Robbie: I smell strawberry ice cream

[00:04:40] Chuck: Hmm. Astronaut or real?

[00:04:45] Robbie: somewhere in between. It's not as, fruity as

[00:04:52] Chuck: Yeah. I, I'm getting more of a like a red cotton candy, which

should smell the same as the blue and some [00:05:00] other things. But yeah, more of like a

[00:05:01] Robbie: yeah. Cotton candy doesn't have any flavors, right? It's just arbitrarily colored.

[00:05:05] Chuck: It's just colored. Yeah, I mean it's stringed sugar, essentially.

[00:05:09] Robbie: I can make it in a blender at home.

[00:05:12] Chuck: Never tried that. Feels messy enough as is, like, no thank you. Alrighty, so yeah, it has a very sweet smell to me. Slight must. Not musk. Don't confuse those. Alright, I'm gonna prime it up. Got kind of a rindy bitterness at the but that's just

[00:05:43] Robbie: It does have some bitterness to it.

[00:05:51] Chuck: My face doesn't say good things, but It's just strange [00:06:00] because it goes from sweet to bitter very quickly, so My palate is trying to adjust to that, like it has

[00:06:05] Robbie: Yeah. It's like eating a sour candy. Not sour at all, but like, does similar things of

[00:06:10] Chuck: Yeah, you get like that sugar initially and then all of a sudden you start to get a strong oppositional flavor And like I'm trying to adapt to that And that's it for a few

Yeah, it has kind of a syrupy quality in the beginning and then quickly shifts It does feel like a little more burny than I expect for a 90 proof I mean, I know that's not an 80, but for me typically a lot of times a 90 would Go down pretty smoothly and this one seems to Kind of want to I don't know hang in the back of your throat a little bit

[00:06:43] Robbie: Yeah, it feels, it feels pretty harsh. I feel like it tastes kinda like, you know, it's, it's got a good bit of wood to it to where, but not in a good way. Like, like I'm chewing on a Non aged stick. Like I just broke a, [00:07:00] a limb off a tree and then like just chewing on that and like, I don't imagine that would taste great.

So that's kind of what ,

[00:07:07] Chuck: You don't, you don't, you don't chew sticks. You don't just find sticks and chew them.

[00:07:12] Robbie: I don't,

[00:07:13] Chuck: well.

[00:07:14] Robbie: I thought that was like straw or hay or, or

[00:07:16] Chuck: No, it could be sticks too. I mean, it's good for your teeth.

[00:07:19] Robbie: Mm.

[00:07:20] Chuck: Never, never had a cavity. No braces. It's cause of sticks. Yeah, yeah. So it has a syrupy ness for me initially. It's Keep your face in the mic, bro.

Yeah, I guess some of that, like, woodiness to bitterness is there. And then, like, I don't know, almost like a, like a spicy cinnamon. Kind of like, you know, you get like a really spicy cinnamon gum. Like, and that hangs out for a bit, like, in the back of my throat. I'm kind of

[00:07:55] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:07:55] Chuck: I don't know.

Yeah. [00:08:00] Right.

[00:08:01] Robbie: Jack Daniels to me. And I'm sure some of that is intentional because that's what Frank Sinatra supposedly liked the best. So, why change it a ton if you're trying to be true to him, I guess. But

[00:08:13] Chuck: you're trying to get it. I feel like this is, you know, age slightly longer, some weird stave things. Like, I feel like it's mostly marketing, to be honest. And given the price point of this, which I don't know exactly what we paid, but I've seen the range, which seems to be average around 150 a bottle.

So,

[00:08:36] Robbie: us.

[00:08:37] Chuck: yeah.

[00:08:37] Robbie: was cause we bought it secondhand, but

[00:08:39] Chuck: Right, yeah, so at certain times you're like kinda getting the markup, the markup prices instead of just total wine or something of that nature. So yeah, given the price too, I can't say I'm overly impressed. Like, yeah, I like Frank Sinatra. I don't, I don't need to wear his suits or drink his whiskey in order to enjoy him, [00:09:00] but, you know.

I don't know, let's just get into it. You want to talk about the tentacle scale? Dear listener, you've heard this over and over again, but just in case you forget, short term memory, we use the scale from 0 to 8 tentacles. As developers, we want to stay 0 based. And 0 being terrible, 4 being eh. And 8 being amazing, for a Jack Daniels even.

I don't know. Yeah, for me, this is pretty mid, like, this is probably like marginally better than a regular Jack Daniels, but at, you know, what, six times, almost seven times the price, I would say, of a bottle of Jack Daniels. I'm not feeling it so much. I mean, nicer packaging only takes you so far. I guess if I was just displaying this to show off to my other Rat Pack [00:10:00] fandom, then I might feel better about it.

So, yeah, I don't know. I guess, given that, I've just talked myself into a three. It's, like, below average because it costs so much more than the average. To me, I'm just looking at regular Jack Daniels as being the average. And this cost me a lot more for not a lot more on the flavor profile. I might come back to it because I am going to add a few drops and see what happens.

[00:10:24] Robbie: Yeah. I think, For me, it's probably Because it's so expensive and like I feel like it doesn't really add much of anything other than like I feel cool looking at it I'm gonna give it a three because it's like It's unimpressive like if this were the normal jack daniels and it were you know This tiny little bit better then I think maybe jack daniels on its own could be You a little bit higher but Yeah, i'm not not getting a lot of a lot that I love [00:11:00] out of it.

So

[00:11:00] Chuck: Yeah. 60 bucks you can buy a Gentleman Jack, which is an elevated Jack Daniels, and I would say that is better value for money. Far beyond this. I have read about a few different expressions they've released, you know, this year or late last year. They were like 12 and 15 year. I know there's a 12 year for sure.

I feel like there's maybe another one and and those are supposed to be quite good, you know, slightly different expressions, different. There's a lot more to know about what's going into that too. Like oh, okay. It's a single barrel, you know, where on the rack was it, and that kind of stuff that you can get to know.

This is all mystery, which feels like because there's not much more story to tell. Alas, there we are. Hmm. It mellows a little with a little water. It starts to become a little more, I put three [00:12:00] drops in, and it starts to just still be a little more maple y throughout. A little less bite on the end. Still hangs in the throat a little bit, but that whole like, knock me over with some bitterness has tempered.

So it's made it more tolerable to drink, not necessarily something I'd buy at this price point either way.

[00:12:20] Robbie: yeah, didn't you say that am I totally Imagining this or did you say that sinatra would usually put some water in it?

[00:12:29] Chuck: Yeah, they even have it on the website actually, like, drink it like Frank, and he would do three cubes, two fingers of whiskey, and a splash of water.

[00:12:37] Robbie: Hmm, so I wonder if you do that if this is like ideal for that setup

[00:12:43] Chuck: I don't know. I wonder if you do that for regular Jack Daniels. If you're Yeah as satisfied with the outcome, you know?

So, I don't know a lot of people who drink Jack Daniels straight. Like, just the normal, whatever, let's say 25, 30 bottle. I don't know what Jack Daniels costs. I mean, [00:13:00] But like, let's just say you're, you know, you go to the liquor store.

It's available everywhere. It's the like, one Rockstars would chug to. You get that? And I just don't know many people who just drink that straight. It feels like that is always like a Jack and Coke kind of drinker.

[00:13:18] Robbie: Yeah

[00:13:19] Chuck: is fine. If that's the way you like it, then great.

[00:13:21] Robbie: Yeah, and I think that's all marketing too It's like you really just want a whiskey and coke, but you just like know of that brand so it's

[00:13:28] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:13:29] Robbie: Yeah,

[00:13:33] Chuck: the sweeter flavor because of the maple. charcoal filtering, right? Like, you definitely are wanting that, and that is unique to Jack Daniel's, so you give it, you know, I give them that. I mean, conversely, you're like, yeah, you could Jim Beam and Coke it, and then you're not getting sweetness, you're getting just normal flavor.

I don't know, some people do like a Maker's too, which is weeded, might have slightly more sweetness without adding

[00:13:58] Robbie: I can tell you what you don't want to [00:14:00] do

you don't want to do beam and What do you call the little kool aids that are in like the plastic Bottles that you like twist the top off,

[00:14:11] Chuck: the little plastic twist off Kool Aid things? I don't even know what those are called, but I remember I mean, yeah, my kids have had them

[00:14:18] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah, we had those, and like, took the tops off, and like, drank a little bit of the Kool Aid, and just like, poured a bunch of Jim Beam in the top. I don't even know how we got it in there. Very carefully, I guess, because the hole's pretty small. But yeah, it was once we got it put together, I was like, this is not tasty.

I would

[00:14:37] Chuck: No. No, I don't think that's a whiskey. That's like vodka, maybe rum. That's about it. You know, Kool Aid and

[00:14:45] Robbie: Well. When you're not old enough to buy your own alcohol, you do what you have to do.

[00:14:50] Chuck: Yeah, you take what you can. I mean, we would just usually find random two liters, so Oh, okay, looks like it's only Mountain Dew. That doesn't taste [00:15:00] good together, but what you do is you like, chug a little, you know, a little bit of whiskey or whatever, cheap vodka, whatever you have, chase it with your Mountain Dew, and Mountain Dew tends to cover up a lot.

[00:15:11] Robbie: Oh yeah.

[00:15:12] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:15:13] Robbie: flavor.

[00:15:14] Chuck: I've luckily in life graduated beyond the arbitrary chasers for whatever cheap liquor I can procure

[00:15:22] Robbie: Yes.

[00:15:23] Chuck: So hallelujah for that.

[00:15:26] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:15:27] Chuck: Progress. Commerce. Capitalism.

[00:15:30] Robbie: Speaking of progress and capitalism, do you want to go into this first web point you had here?

[00:15:38] Chuck: I do, just because it's been, like this week, it's kind of been a topic spurned on by a few different I think it might have come from, I can't remember if it was a Reddit or Hacker News post initially, but, and then it's on Tech Twitter and people are talking about, like, and we've seen this more than once in the last couple of months, where people get, [00:16:00] kind of like thrown awry because they randomly, they all of a sudden get, you know.

20, 000 bill from Vercel or a 100, 000 bill from Netlify or, you know, whatever. And because these are hosting services, hosting services, I mean, use that very loosely because there are companies built on another hosting service that is complex. And the whole thought is this is dev on easy mode where, you know, like many other tools, it's supposed to help you.

build on easy to a point and then until it's not and then it's either like time to grow up and pay a big boy bill or you get surprised with a big boy bill from like DDoS attacks or you know any number of like potential insecurities in your site as you build your thing with bleeding edge technology expecting a very simple outcome and I [00:17:00] think it's an interesting I mean, you sign up for a service, you, most people don't read the legal speak.

But again, they were pitching themselves as, Hey, we're, we're, you know, we're AWS easy. So get all the cost benefits of AWS within our platform, which is basically the AOL for developers. And, You know, life is good and easy and all these things that you would have had to learn and learn how to manage and turn on and off and whatever else we do for you, but not really.

if we get hit with a big bill, we're gonna give it to you.

[00:17:34] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. I think. It's a delicate balance because I always tend to argue That if you are big enough to get a big bill, you probably should afford the big bill like unless somebody fucked something up and like I don't know did something that like recursively called like recursively wrote to the database infinitely and like, you know something weird to like You know [00:18:00] mess up like that or a ddos attack or something out of your control You If it's based on actual usage, like, I think that's fine.

I think there needs to be some kind of lever to pull that's like, you know, oh, I can show that these 10 million hits were, like, fake. And then there needs to be some sort of up the chain mitigation type of thing for that. Because, like, if you're small and you actually didn't get that traffic, then you're not really probably monetizing at that level.

And there's no way you could pay those bills.

And I mean, that being said, you could also just not pay them.

Like they're, they're probably, if it's 20 grand, they're probably not going to sue you. They'll probably like send you some threatening letters and stuff. But like, you know, I have a, a very pessimistic view of that whole system.

Cause you can just not pay whatever you want and like [00:19:00] sue me fine.

[00:19:01] Chuck: Hmm, interesting. So here you go, legal advice from, from Robbie the Wagner is

Just, just Don't, don't pay your bills if you don't want to, or if you're not making enough money, or if you want to keep some of your money. I don't know. Yeah, I think it's interesting. I think the assumption is always like, well, yeah, you start having the usage that necessitates you use more, you pay more.

I mean, it's just, it's not free forever. That's. I think the business model for a lot of these services, I mean, I think, you know, cloud services in general kind of go down that path of thinking a lot of times and which is fine. But then there just ends up being edge cases and fallacies. And it feels like those edge cases are becoming a little more, a little more prevalent.

In these cases, like the one guy had just basically a shit ton of egress because he had like a four megabyte mp3 up [00:20:00] that like, I don't know, bots got aware of and then like started like hitting up like crazy. So then there's usage because the usage is there for having his site active and then for serving this file, you know, X number of times to 100 gigabytes or whatever it was.

So. You know, like that's, that's basically like such a strange edge case and, feels like, I don't know, you would have some alarm, like you should have

[00:20:32] Robbie: Yeah, it feels like they should block that. Like, if you're using the right provider, they probably can detect, oh, like, this is a shitload more traffic than you usually have. Let's look at these IP addresses. Oh, this is clearly like a botnet that's just trying to take all of your money. Let's block traffic for 30 minutes and see if it goes away or something.

Like, I think there needs to be something like that in these easy mode type of [00:21:00] sass products. People have no idea what they're doing. If you haven't opened the AWS console and configured all of this yourself, you don't know

[00:21:08] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:21:08] Robbie: it works. So like need to protect you.

[00:21:12] Chuck: Yeah. I mean, I, that's kind of what I think. I think that if they are, you know, the whole, It's a strange comparison, but it's sort of like AOL to the internet, right? The internet is the Wild West, and AOL was like a comfy portal for that, that provided nice guardrails for you, that you were happy to never escape from.

And, you know, I know it's not gonna like make them a unicorn, but, you know, for sell. of provide, especially in like, I don't know, what is it? The hobby, the non pro plans, right? Let's say you're like at a certain levels, like understanding the user wants control [00:22:00] assumed, unless opted out explicitly versus some kind of inverse.

And that would make a lot more sense for me. If that's like what you're trying to be is, you know, the, the happy platform for, Developers to come and play and build things in then, then provide that, like, you know, so

[00:22:19] Robbie: Yeah. I feel like, I feel like, yeah, they could have like an enterprise tier, which they already have, but like there should be something. That's monitoring. Like, if anything is blowing up, be like, we notice this is blowing up, it's going to be expensive. Are you expecting to be blowing up right now? If not, like, click this button to shut it down.

If yes, like, here's a button to give us a bunch more money and opt into enterprise mode because you actually want this. Like,

[00:22:49] Chuck: Yeah. Maybe, you know, right. Like is it your job as a singular hobbyist to add, you know, monitoring and [00:23:00] observability, ? I feels like some of that should come

for free.

[00:23:04] Robbie: yeah, I think they're thinking you should, but I do think it should be built in.

[00:23:08] Chuck: Yeah, the use cases there, I think it may be where are a little askew. So, you know, even if you're just trying to have like a side hustle startup kind of thing, like again, you, you don't necessarily think about those kinds of problems until you encounter them and then you address that problem. But like, you're not like architecting an enterprise application out of the gate.

And I think that's another kind of flaw there. So. You know, if you want to own, if, if, if these companies want to own a slice of developer experience, then I think that there's a level of responsibility to that community that should come into play.

[00:23:50] Robbie: Yeah, I agree. So Guillermo, I know you're listening. Build all this in for us and don't charge anyone that wasn't expecting it. Okay, thanks.

[00:23:59] Chuck: [00:24:00] Yeah. I mean, to be fair, like, he did have discourse with the one person that had, like, I don't know, like, 20, 000 bill or whatever. And The team addressed that and they reduced the bill and you know, some of that kind of stuff. It doesn't, it doesn't mean they've put in anything that stops it next time, but

[00:24:16] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:24:17] Chuck: like publicly addressed things.

[00:24:19] Robbie: Yeah. I think Amazon too. Well, like. Is pretty reasonable about it, especially with a someone like for cell is doing so much with them I'm sure they have like a dedicated answer me right now support guy and like You just tell that guy like oops this guy like did something wrong and then aws is like, oh actually, yeah you know our real costs for serving all this data was like I don't know 50 bucks.

We'll just charge you that instead of like fifty thousand dollars

[00:24:48] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:24:49] Robbie: We're all happy

[00:24:51] Chuck: Right. Exactly. It's like, you know, from a cost perspective for Amazon, which is like constantly driving down cheaper and cheaper and cheaper all the time. Like, can you [00:25:00] imagine that thing for them? That many layers deep at the heart of it. It, it was like, Oh, well, this cost us it looks like 80 cents in electricity, these fractional moments on the server for those three hours.

Oof. Yeah, I guess if you like break down that hardware costs, that's another 4 and 15 cents. Let's just call it a flat five, five bucks. Yeah. Anyway, I'm sure it's something of that nature. That does, have me kind of dovetail into, though something I didn't put a thing there, but maybe related, I don't know.

Is that, like, why do I keep coming across other products that are that Vercel or Guillermo directly are investors in? Like, am I wrong? I'm just gonna, all right.

[00:25:56] Robbie: so

[00:25:56] Chuck: Yeah, but

[00:25:57] Robbie: and everything.

[00:25:58] Chuck: I mean, that's [00:26:00] crazy. Like, aren't you investing in your own company, building all the things and driving React and all these other things?

Like, you got so much money that you had to buy some other companies and invest in other companies. I mean, I just, I'm seeing it all over the place and so, Then there's like they bought the turbo repo stuff and then that came into their ecosystem And then I just see where they like they invest in I don't know whatever UI library thing whatever Component like I don't know where they like maybe even investors in clerk.

I know since

[00:26:34] Robbie: Yeah, they invest in everything. Like, I don't know if their intentions are always pure or not, but it's like they're investors in Nuxt, which is the Vue competitor to Nuxt, has nothing to do with like, none of the technologies are the same. They invest in Astro, like

[00:26:50] Chuck: Yeah,

[00:26:51] Robbie: All these different things. I think on some level they genuinely want to push the web forward, which is great.

But I think on another level, there are hedging [00:27:00] bets of like, if react went away tomorrow, I guess their next thing would be Svelte. And we're going to talk to rich Harris soon about all of that. But like, yeah, I don't, I don't know the why, if it's like, If there's direct financial incentive to do so, or if it's more goodwill or not, or some of both, I'm not sure.

[00:27:22] Chuck: Yeah, yeah, it is curious to me because it sounds like, I mean, I know at times you can, you know, make acquisitions that make sense for business objectives, right? It's almost like software. It's like buy versus build sometimes.

I get that, but, some of the investments aren't totally clear to me. Like. I don't know, maybe, maybe you want to be such a web platform from like start to finish off and everything else, like every SAS, you could just tie them all together and click three buttons and have AI write your whole application.

So now it's no code [00:28:00] and everything happens in one place. I, yeah, it's hard for me to say. I'm obviously not business savvy enough in that way at that scale to really for sure. But Yeah.

[00:28:16] Robbie: like the journey of AWS as it started of like, okay, we built all of this infrastructure to sell you stuff and. We don't need all this infrastructure, but we did a really great job building it all. Why don't we just scale it up? Like keep having more data centers, let other people pay us tons of money to use it because we already figured this out.

So like the same is true with for sale of like, you know, we're going to start with next JS and we're going to be the best place to host next JS and that's our framework. And like it has all this secret sauce, but also why wouldn't we kill Netlify on the way up? We should just let everything be hosted here and we should partner with every [00:29:00] framework and like, you know, make it the best experience for everyone because yes, they're not our bread and butter and they're not making us as much money as maybe these huge Next.

js apps, but if you capture every little project written in Astro that like someone does and a few of those blow up and make you some money that makes them money and like, you know, Why not, right? I think it's just like bootstrapping the future of like being able to do everything.

[00:29:27] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I can certainly agree with that in the sense of like, while next is a good sort of like, entry point into Vercel potentially, right? Like use the thing we built, it obviously works best here. You don't, you know, if you want all of those efficiencies, but also now we're using those learnings.

To apply it to other things, too, and we know how to Provide some best in class experiences there. I mean, that, that totally makes sense. It [00:30:00] is an interesting thing though. Again, when you build your entire company on top of another company, which I guess in some ways,

yeah, it feels interesting to like repackage that, right?

Like, so that tells me at the end of the day, every tool you need, I mean, obviously it's not easy by any means, but let's just say. That's why there's the open next project, right? They reverse engineer and they're saying, showing you, is exactly how they do it. You can do this without them at a fraction of the cost.

[00:30:29] Robbie: Yeah, I think the the AWS thing is an interesting phenomenon because You would think right like Why don't they make the consoles better or why don't they acquire vercel to make like that the new way you configure stuff and like? because They want people to build stuff like this To drive up their usage because if they acquire it then it's all internal usage They want an external company paying them big piles of cash.[00:31:00]

And it's, it's a beautiful business model. Like they had the chance to be like, you know, who's going to acquire Slack, right? Like they could have, we use it a lot there, but it's one of the biggest AWS users. So why would you cannibalize your usage?

[00:31:15] Chuck: yeah, absolutely. Right, so there's the other side of things. You have yeah, decentralized applications like that. That all the infrastructure lives there. Yeah, I mean, for them, they're like, We have the farm. You need the farm. Come use it all you want. We could make it easier, but this works. Why would we spend money when it's already working?

[00:31:40] Robbie: Yep.

[00:31:41] Chuck: Yeah, so.

[00:31:43] Robbie: Yeah. Yeah. Right. felt weird and opposite to me when I first. Figured all that out, but like makes total sense now.

[00:31:52] Chuck: I mean. You don't have to pay servers a salary. That's an interesting [00:32:00] distinction there. Right? You know? So.

[00:32:03] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:32:03] Chuck: Hmm.

[00:32:06] Robbie: okay. Let's see. Yeah, I guess.

[00:32:14] Chuck: Go and do your thing. I know

[00:32:16] Robbie: Okay. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. I was just trying to read what you wrote and see if we could talk about it. We can come back to it if you want. Yeah, so I was just curious, like, you know, there's all these different size companies. Obviously Amazon is like the biggest employer in the world.

So like, they're different than, you know, a startup, which is different than a, you know, well funded mid tier, like not a startup anymore, but not a, not a big like fan company, all, all different spectrums. And it's like, how do we define what is a CTO first off? And then like, what is their role? In the company.

Is it like [00:33:00] to actually look at everything everyone's doing and like go, oh, you're doing this this way. There's a more efficient algorithm for this. There's a, you know, I've done this this way and this should go this way. I see you didn't follow like these edge cases or tests for this. Like here's like, like, should they be that granular or is it more like, Hey, let me pick some technologies we might use.

And like give some theoretical best practices and like check in with me if you want advice But otherwise i'm gonna like trust all of my teams to do what they what they want to do because if like if you don't allow people to try stuff and fail then it's like they don't learn and it and then there's like no process of like planning and ticketing and like all of that is meaningless because Like People on high come down and they're just like, Oh yeah, redo all this.

Cause it's [00:34:00] not what I wanted.

[00:34:01] Chuck: Right.

[00:34:01] Robbie: just curious on your thoughts of like, you know, the, the fine line there and, and what you think those roles are.

[00:34:08] Chuck: I mean, I can't presume to, To know if you're. citing perhaps a very specific situation current or

past. I don't know.

[00:34:21] Robbie: specifics, but

[00:34:23] Chuck: Yes. So obviously the answer is always, it depends. If you are, you know, like, So people get the title CTO, for example, in a lot of startups, right? Like your founders group will end up with C level titles based on that status as a founder.

And oftentimes that means hands on keyboard, creating the basis of the company, right? So in those times, even as that. team begins to grow That role still [00:35:00] probably has like hands on keyboard and is really a little more like Staff principal engineer kind of level right like I'm still going to be or lead You know as the team grows you may go from like technical lead up into like more principal architecture things with like your finger on the pulse.

Let's just say that that's still like a small team that includes that person as an individual contributor. But again, that's a very like non traditional scenario. It's a more of like we're starting a company and we have all hands on deck because we're making the thing. Right where we're creating that or you know, we pivoted and we have the next MVP or something of that nature So let's just assume we're not talking about that scenario, you know startups seed rounds, whatever that is where?

boots on the ground Probably matter a whole bunch more and everything's small enough where there's a lot of visibility across the board. So people are like Having conversations with the CTO all the time [00:36:00] I'd say now, when you have more mature companies, it just means like larger org and all of that kind of stuff, where like the CTO is a member of the leadership executive leadership team, and there's a lot of business strategy happening at that level.

And then there's technical strategy happening from A CTO. So A CTO will. Tend to help form a technical direction from say like, oh, AI seems to really getting traction. I feel like there could be some possibilities for AI to help our business in A, B or C. And then that goes down to others in order to like investigate and implement and whatever that amounts to.

In that instance, I wouldn't see a CTO as looking at a PR. Right? No pull request reviews from your CTO. That, to me, shows a lack of [00:37:00] trust in the team. Because if you're coming down to say, Yeah, this implementation isn't quite right, And, you know, I would have thought about ABC, Or I would have gone this other direction, or You know, whatever else, like if you're granular like that, I don't think that's a good look.

I mean, I've been a part of organizations that say we're like 20 plus people, where even then I felt the CTO shouldn't be up in everybody's grill and every single pull request and would be over being like, not a map, I would use a filter, like, fuck off, don't worry about my array mapping, like that much, like these kinds of things, like.

I'm glad you would do it that way. You're not hacking away by yourself in an office creating this company anymore. You, you've got other stuff to go. You

[00:37:50] Robbie: I think it really kills team morale to do that of like. You know, I was the tech lead on this feature and I just like planned everything and [00:38:00] built it all and then like I'm pleased with it. Most of the teams pleased with it. We're, you know, blissfully unaware of any potential technical implications and then it's like oh have you thought about like these cases which like Maybe are valid cases, but they like don't matter for like the next couple years to like like they're irrelevant for shipping this feature You But like a thing we should probably consider and refactor and whatever Should that shut the whole project down right there?

I don't think so. I think it's like it's valid to Voice opinions like that like one you shouldn't have been looking at it in the first place I agree with that, but then like if you have and we're all kind of collaborating on the solution I think there needs to be flexibility of like You know, I actually really appreciate all the work you did and like Uh, I'm glad that you had this learning experience to like learn what things work best and like, let's, you know, if you want to consult with me next [00:39:00] time, like if you have questions or want to hear my opinion or like, you know, I'm here as a resource, I feel like is like the role they should fill.

[00:39:08] Chuck: Yeah, potentially. I mean, having skip levels and some sort of access is nice and makes people feel more connected. But if it's for the purpose of coming in, you know, swooping in as the leader on high, and criticizing and then taking off, right? Like, you know, there's so much like backstory and context to that a leader wouldn't really get out of that of like,

you have no idea how the team may have collectively come to this conclusion, what offline conversations were had, anything else.

And you're just like, Hmm, I just came to check in. And I think I think I could do better. So why don't you go back to the drawing board, right? Like,

[00:39:48] Robbie: Yeah,

it's easy for me to criticize that though, but that is. Exactly what I would be tempted to do because like I see anything that's not the way I would have done it and I'm like No, you don't have to take my [00:40:00] advice, but this is how I would have done it just sort of like

Especially if it saves like, you know, the implementation is like 50 lines of code.

I'm like, here's how you do it in 10 I feel like that's beneficial to everyone but also

[00:40:13] Chuck: sort of,

[00:40:14] Robbie: Yeah, but it it then still hinders that person who did that implementation because it's like They just feel less than every time because it's like, oh shit, like I didn't do it

[00:40:26] Chuck: yeah,

[00:40:26] Robbie: the way that like is the best way.

So like

[00:40:30] Chuck: yeah,

[00:40:30] Robbie: get put down all the time

[00:40:32] Chuck: nobody ever comes up with like a solution that is the top 1 percent of best solutions, like every single time, right? Like, you know, your potential.

I don't know. I mean, I haven't seen his, I guess that's not true. I've seen his code on streams, but that is to say like, you know, what, what are you arguing against too?

Okay, so like let's think about [00:41:00] potential context here of like, are you looking at I don't know. I mean, are you looking at an Ember application and I don't know, a service for processing metrics through that? Or, you know, like what, what really are we looking at where you need a hyper performant idealized algorithm every single time?

[00:41:22] Robbie: Yeah, yeah, I think it does depend that's that's a good point of like should if it's very very bad performance wise like I don't know, like 15 nested for loops or something, like probably, probably bad. Like, but if it's like, you know, if it works and there isn't like a performance issue perceptible to the user, then I don't think you should care.

And then also like, never get involved with like, oh, you should put a semicolon here or a space here [00:42:00] or a,

[00:42:00] Chuck: Yeah.

Yeah. Again, subjective opinions. Yeah, subjective opinions, like what are you in there you're making, you're a CTO of a multi billion dollar company or whatever, you know, like, maybe that's not the case here, but like, you're a CTO responsible for the technical success of your organization, and do you think those comments are, are reinforcing that goal?

How about that? Like think about what is, is what you're doing directly impacting that in any way, or are you just coming into flex and like pump your own ego? Because that's what it feels like.

[00:42:44] Robbie: Yep.

[00:42:45] Chuck: So I would say most of the time, no, as a CTO down in the weeds of pull requests and, you know, having subjective commentary about some of those things is probably not beneficial.

I can't think of [00:43:00] one. Positive that would go there like, Oh, I've come in and taught Robbie something that he hadn't realized before. And now I'm gonna expect 10 X performance out of that interaction, right? Like, is that an outcome? Is that something like, I mean, I'm, I'm a constant learner and I'm honestly open for discourse around these things.

But like, you know, I would wonder if the CTO was looking at my stuff, like. Am I that bad or is like what has brought this on that everyone else in this team has not seen this as a problem and we're moving forward to deliver. You know, and maybe you need to be

[00:43:45] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:43:45] Chuck: like from your direct reports down or something then like maybe you need to be talking to your directors and managers and

[00:43:52] Robbie: Well, I think it all comes down to communication on all levels. Like the, the people that are doing the [00:44:00] developing should be opening up open forum. I'm going to implement this thing. Here's how I'm thinking about doing it. Anyone have any reservations about that? Then also like. maybe those people happen to also be like big time experts in certain technologies.

And like, whereas engineering leadership doesn't realize that. And they're like, Oh, I would do it this way. You know, mansplaining to them of like how it goes. And it's like, Oh, well I'm actually an expert in this. And like, here's the reasons why I think it should actually be this way.

[00:44:34] Chuck: Yeah

[00:44:34] Robbie: So I think that communication also like, you know, always talking about that.

This is somewhat related like to you know, getting promotions and doing whatever you need to be your own advocate of like it feels weird to be like I did this thing and it is cool as shit and just like post that in a like You know channel because that's like not what I would normally do I would just be like building stuff move on to the next thing but like you've got [00:45:00] to be your own advocate and advertise everything you're doing and like That builds the trust too because then if like leadership sees all that they're like, oh he's doing a lot of cool stuff and like

[00:45:09] Chuck: Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's kind of a sad reality around like performance and promotions and things like that, that I don't think is true in many industries. And I'm happy to be corrected if there happened to be like, you know architects or doctors or whatever, listening to this podcast, where like, Well, yeah, I mean, I guess, like, doctors are an interesting different thing, too.

I mean, you have, like, peer reviewed publications that people get involved in, and obviously you can get, you know, some kind of advocacy and, and, you know, specialized celebrity in those groups with that, but, like, normal path? Like, I don't know. Yeah, it just feels strange that, like, what 10 years ago would have been just like, [00:46:00] you just sit in the corner and crank out PRs and you do it for a little while and show that you're getting better and better at it and you get promoted.

That just happens.

[00:46:08] Robbie: Yeah, it

feels the same as like,

[00:46:11] Chuck: at me, look at me. Right.

[00:46:19] Robbie: too many commits, we see you're a lone wolf and you're not mentoring the team and pairing with them and getting them to commit. And you're not like delegating and like.

Well, okay. That might be true, but if I can knock all that shit out, like do 10 developers work in no time and like really crank stuff out, is it really beneficial for me to spend all of my time teaching them? You know, they would say yes, because like theoretically everyone will level up continuously until we're all at that level, but like, I would say no.

If like, if I know how to implement a thing and I can do it in five minutes and it'll take me two hours to pair with you. To figure it all out, then what's the [00:47:00] point? Let me just implement it real quick. Like if it's a medium sized thing, then it's like, you know that it's gray area, but

[00:47:06] Chuck: Yeah, the Yeah Yeah

Okay. You say you're a senior on the team. And, you are asked to level up those around you, help your team improve and get to your level. When it used to kind of be, it definitely used to be the other way around. It was, the onus was on you to seek, like, answers and mentorship and like, kind of get buy in for that.

Like, people could be like, fuck off, go read the, go read the manual. And then you would have to like go and bang your head for a while and, come back with better questions, I guess, right? And then maybe over time somebody could see like, great, you're putting in some effort, you're trying to get it. Okay, I'll answer your questions.

Maybe next [00:48:00] time I'll pair with you or I'll show you how to do this thing and where to find these other answers. It's true. I do see a big shift in that. And for better or worse, like, what is that? Like, it's a transference of onus. And maybe not for the better now that I kind of think about it, right? Like, because we've had such an influx in the industry of people, you know, becoming developers and like, getting into the industry for various reasons.

And that's okay. You know, you might, maybe you want money or freedom and those kinds of things are appealing. And as long as you're willing to work for it during the time that you're asked. You know, you don't have to be in love with your life or your job, but you do have to have some proficiency. And the onus is on you to get said proficiency.

Is it on someone else to sort of guide you there? And I do feel like there's a shift that

[00:48:57] Robbie: Yeah

[00:48:57] Chuck: think you got to want it and go get it. And you can't [00:49:00] expect someone to take you along on that ride.

[00:49:03] Robbie: Yeah, I think you're right that it's like it's flipped because I'm happy to help as much as you want but ask me for help like i'm having problems with these things Can you help me with xyz? You

[00:49:13] Chuck: I assume you want that?

[00:49:14] Robbie: Yeah, I shouldn't just be always like checking in and like, you know, I'm a resource, but like I'm a as needed resource.

I don't need to be pairing every day or delegating all of my tasks that I know I could do in five minutes. So let me spend an hour writing the ticket up and like planning it all and like, no, I already know the implementation. I don't need to write it all down.

[00:49:38] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah, it's an interesting thing because, like, It was very simple, and it essentially would be like you have juniors to seniors on your team, and you know that you're going to expect a higher velocity out of senior people, and you also can expect them to take higher, more complex tasks, right?

And so someone has to show [00:50:00] they're taking greater challenges, and they have more output. And those metrics are pretty straightforward, so I wonder where that kind of went askew. And then more of the mentorship would always follow people when they really, like, started to get on the path of leadership. So, I was never really responsible for that very much.

More like stringently through HR qualifications or whatever until tech lead. Once you became a tech lead, like on a project team or whatever, on a team, then it was sort of like, yeah, you're gonna help, You're going to be architectural decisions, you're going to help make sure you unblock the team, like, at that point, you're making sure the, every, the individuals are performing like on, on the ground, boots on the ground kind of thing.

And yeah, so, and I've seen shifts where like tech lead has kind of gone away to in some things, which is strange because that was the clear thing [00:51:00] is like you're potentially looking at leadership. Try before you buy. get to set the direction of your team. Enjoy.

[00:51:10] Robbie: Yeah, yeah, it's, I do want to wrap up this and get this and whatnot, but like it, it does feel like you used to be able to just level yourself up. If you wanted to just be an individual contributor, you can be a principal engineer and just crank out code and like, yes, of course you're going to help people.

An engineer at any level should be able to help people succeed and be a resource and you know, Oh, I've solved these problems before. Here's how you might do it. You know, whatever. But like, that shouldn't be, your job shouldn't be delegating. That's like, that's a manager's job.

[00:51:46] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:51:46] Robbie: the work.

[00:51:47] Chuck: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:48] Robbie: should be doing work.

[00:51:50] Chuck: Right. I mean, if you're building a house and you're putting the frame together, right, and you have the carpenters there, and you're like, Well, listen, Chuck, you better [00:52:00] make sure Robbie puts in at least 114 nails today. If he doesn't, that's not gonna look good for you. Right. Doesn't matter if you put 300 nails in, Robbie gets to 114.

It's we're gonna have a talk about your performance. Which is Robbie's performance.

[00:52:15] Robbie: Yeah. Yep. That is how it feels.

[00:52:18] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:52:19] Robbie: speaking of how things feel, tell me about love is blind.

[00:52:22] Chuck: Oh boy. What can I tell you about Love is Blind? I mean, there's apparently been like a ton of seasons of this. It's a Nick Lachey, Vanessa Lachey, I forget her name before, Menudo's or whatever. I don't know. She was on some, um You know, entertainment show, entertainment news show, forever ago. So it's this like, post Jessica Simpson wife.

Seem like lovely people. I don't know. Nick Lachey is from Cincinnati, Ohio, by the way.

Fun fact.

[00:52:50] Robbie: blind is different than married at first sight.

[00:52:54] Chuck: Well, yes, because there's a courting, so because there's a courting [00:53:00] part, so they get put in these pods. So it's like you have the men on one end and the females on another and then there is these pods. And then they'll just have these different scheduled times where like a male and female go in together.

Everybody meets everyone and then you sort of decide who you're interested in. And then you do these dates where you never see each other. There are these pods and they can hear each other, but that's it. And then they

keep kind of

[00:53:26] Robbie: directly via voice. You just don't get to see them.

[00:53:29] Chuck: Yeah, you don't get to see them. So there's the blind part. And then at, you know, the end of whatever period, people you've been dating or whatever else, you essentially I, I guess this is decide, well, I mean, so the men and women, whatever else they're dating. So say you're a guy, you're dating two women. You decide one that you want to break up with, one that you want to move forward.

And like, then they do go like down a marriage path, but they don't get married. They still are, they get engaged. So they see each other the [00:54:00] first time they can get engaged there. And that's that. And then

they do this, like.

[00:54:05] Robbie: Nope out of that? Like,

[00:54:07] Chuck: Once they see each

other? So, no. Well, this is funny, so in this recent season, I've heard it in the background tangentially or whatever else, and that's kind of like the thing.

Sarah will usually watch it by herself. There's been times where I'm like, Well, I'm gonna play Switch. I'll just be sitting there and it's happening and then like this one there was like a particular couple that just kind of like stood out very funny to me so it was like guy is dating two different women one has a 10 year old kid and then the other you know doesn't or whatever else and she's like a flight attendant but like the one is like I mean she's like a up there she's like a nine whatever I don't know I don't want to classify she's a very attractive lady has a kid kind of throws him off and then the other one is like Tell like mention somehow like people sometimes say I look like a celebrity and he's like well Which one and she said I don't know the one that was in Transformers and Machine [00:55:00] Gun Kelly or whatever He's like people tell you you look like Megan Fox Let me just tell you that's not the case with her She's fine.

But you know, she's misrepresenting a little bit So then because he had doubts about the lady with the kid who is super hot he kind of goes this other direction So then when he meets her, he's all like, oh And he even mentions a couple of times, like, Oh, yeah, yeah, it's funny, you told me the Megan Fox thing, huh?

Yeah, okay. Like, he was definitely like, and he even says it in a little one off interview thing, like, Yeah, she said she looks like Megan Fox. Not exactly. Oh, I'm very attracted to her, though. But, like, exactly. And so you can see, he has some doubts there, and then Later on, I, I guess I'm giving away things, I don't know if you care, but

[00:55:51] Robbie: I'm not going to watch it.

[00:55:52] Chuck: Later on,

[00:55:53] Robbie: listening to this wants to, to watch

[00:55:55] Chuck: Nope out,

like no, Nope out, so at some point later on, so they [00:56:00] all go, all the couples go and do this like five day honeymoon like thing, And then they gotta go home and live, Try to make it work, and at some point, During that, he sees a picture, Of the girl he turned down, And is, you could just see, he's like, regretting that and then they like so they did like six episodes and then they're like doing a mid season break super annoying even on netflix which is bullshit

that's just dragging it out but so there's that interesting drama of like and yeah i don't know they preview some stuff that looks like it is going to get even more interesting so i think it's kind of hilarious

[00:56:38] Robbie: Yeah. I mean, I think all of these shows are like interesting. I don't, I think they're all, you know, somewhat trashy, but it's

[00:56:48] Chuck: They are totally trashy. I've seen like one season of like 90 Day Fiancé or something and there's a hundred more. And, you know, those happen and I don't pay attention. But yeah. in a while I zone in and I'm like, Okay, well this, [00:57:00] this situation is interesting to me.

[00:57:02] Robbie: And I wonder how much of it is just scripted too. Cause

[00:57:05] Chuck: Yeah, it's yeah.

[00:57:06] Robbie: it's gotta have drama. If it doesn't, no one will watch it.

[00:57:09] Chuck: We've had like 30 years of reality TV now, right? So, and probably more than that. But like, but, but. It being like a really mainstream genre, right? Since the real world. It's like, oh yeah, people want this. More of it. I don't know.

[00:57:25] Robbie: yeah, I don't watch it, but I watch everything else. I've been watching all of the law and orders that just came back on recently. Hey,

listen, every grandmother. I don't know.

[00:57:37] Chuck: It's like, you all keep it

going.

[00:57:39] Robbie: I'm watching it till it ends.

Like, won't. That's the point. AI content will be good enough, and they'll just keep it going in perpetuity. What's her name? Yeah, what's her name? Like Marissa

Mariska Hargitay,

yeah,

[00:57:57] Chuck: yeah. Yeah, [00:58:00] she'll just get cloned and retire.

[00:58:03] Robbie: You know, I'll make this show as long as you want. Just keep backing the, like, trucks of cash up to my house and, whenever you guys are done, let me know and I'll retire.

[00:58:14] Chuck: right, exactly. Then I'm good to go. Forever.

[00:58:17] Robbie: Yeah.

[00:58:18] Chuck: So, I'm not gonna let you get out of this, though. Speaking of the Switch, when are you gonna start playing Tears of the Kingdom? I've been very into it in another cycle. I just got the Master Sword, finally. I've been putting it off, putting it off, putting it off.

But then I started to get a few armor sets, and I can kill Gleoks, and I did the first battle with Phantom Ganon, and it was like, I mean, I just brute forced my way through, so I was like, nah, I'm alright, I'm doing okay here. And so I kinda started the main quest again.

[00:58:51] Robbie: Yeah, I have no idea when I'm gonna get to start it because Like, even when I do have some free time, [00:59:00] I don't get to play what I want because it's like, there's this new game out now. I honestly forget even what it's called. Let me see. I got it in a text here.

[00:59:10] Chuck: Called Robbie Does What His Wife Says.

[00:59:13] Robbie: hell divers to came out. It was like this big thing on Instagram and stuff too.

Like it's apparently popping off. But, every night

now, I think it's, it's on. Maybe just PC. I don't know. Like, I don't know what it's on. I would be playing it on PC. So I know it's on that. But like everybody's like, Hey, let's play this. And like every night it's like, you want to play this? And like, it's like 10 PM and you've probably been in bed for like six hours at this point.

But do you want to play this?

[00:59:44] Chuck: Yeah.

[00:59:45] Robbie: no. So like if I had time to play anything, I'd probably have to play with them and figure that out. And like,

[00:59:52] Chuck: Tears of the Kingdom is just for you. Yeah, that's true.

[00:59:55] Robbie: Yeah. Haha,

[00:59:58] Chuck: a side hustle that [01:00:00] really is going to need the rest of your time. So, you side main hustle, I don't

mean to call it. I think I'm gonna have some time, it's like,

[01:00:09] Robbie: I don't even know where the time goes.

Cause like, I'm not getting any, huh?

[01:00:14] Chuck: People will want to give you money.

That's the difference.

[01:00:17] Robbie: No, no, I know, but I mean like, I have, like, I don't know, I'm like, oh look, it's like 9am. And then it's like, wait, it's like the end of the day, and it's like, I didn't waste any time. I worked. Like, you know, maybe not that hard, but like, I wasn't

[01:00:34] Chuck: Hope your boss

doesn't listen to this

[01:00:36] Robbie: doing like anything recreational yet.

All of my time is still gone. And I'm like, what even happened?

[01:00:42] Chuck: Yeah, it goes by in a blur I mean especially like podcast days for me Any other podcast things obviously this morning we were on with Taylor and guidance counselor 2. 0 I wonder what the 1. 0 was like. I didn't forgot to ask him.

But

[01:00:58] Robbie: guidance counselor.

[01:00:59] Chuck: he's like Tosh [01:01:00] boy. No kind of thing anyway Yeah, and then like this little the day is over.

[01:01:06] Robbie: Yep.

[01:01:07] Chuck: And then you drink some Sinatra.

Have a solid three. Yeah,

[01:01:14] Robbie: Yeah, I will go put some, some Frank on the, the turntable after this, though.

[01:01:20] Chuck: That's true, yeah. What's your favorite Frank Sinatra song?

[01:01:23] Robbie: I honestly don't really even know. I just, like, it's background jazz. Like, I couldn't tell you what the songs are. I like them all. I like his voice, but I Summer not like, this one is a, a banger.

[01:01:36] Chuck: Go, go look for Summer Wind. When the summer wind comes creepin in. It sounds better than

that. Yeah, it's a good one.

[01:01:45] Robbie: The frank's like greatest hits or whatever and

[01:01:48] Chuck: Yeah, it's like, it probably 15 of his set or something. Oh, okay, I had this like two CD set for a while, it was like pretty good. And then CDs

stopped a

[01:01:57] Robbie: on a record so it

holds less stuff

[01:01:59] Chuck: it has [01:02:00] that. Yeah,

[01:02:00] Robbie: Yeah

[01:02:01] Chuck: Summer Wind, that's the one I'd pick up. Anyway, speaking of Summer Winds Nothing.

[01:02:10] Robbie: I mean speaking of summer winds we are over time. So

[01:02:13] Chuck: Thanks for watching, everybody.

[01:02:16] Robbie: Yeah

[01:02:17] Chuck: it, please subscribe. Tell your friends because

doing reviews and

[01:02:21] Robbie: any ratings or

[01:02:22] Chuck: don't

[01:02:23] Robbie: hate it when you review the podcast it sucks never do that Please just listen and lurk and ignore us and don't press the five stars

[01:02:32] Chuck: message me on LinkedIn. It's my favorite platform for talking with people and I take it very seriously.

[01:02:39] Robbie: Yeah, you can find me on myspace, just

hit me up there

[01:02:43] Chuck: emo kid.

[01:02:45] Robbie: It was Robbiecore, but

[01:02:48] Chuck: gosh, probably had a belt buckle with that on it too, didn't you?

[01:02:52] Robbie: Well, I didn't have a custom belt buckle, but I had a big Cadillac belt buckle with like a studded rainbow belt Like it [01:03:00] was

[01:03:00] Chuck: Wow.

[01:03:01] Robbie: it was a thing

[01:03:03] Chuck: Hmm. Was it though? It was. Anyway. On that note, folks, Thanks for listening and watching. If you liked it, Keep it to yourself.

[01:03:15] Robbie: Yep. See ya.

[01:03:17] Chuck: Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.